Commission on the Powers and Electoral Arrangements of the National Assembly for Wales

6th Public Meeting held at Merthyr Tydfil Thursday 26th June 2003

Record of Written Questions and Opinions

"I believe that there is no need to have different policing to England. As this task would be extremely time consuming and costly with start up problems, the negative impacts seem to outweigh the positive."

The two key words in the question are ‘effectively’ and expectations’. A position on this question is driven by whether you would want the Asembly to have primary legislative powers or not; that is a more independent Wales from Westminster or not. If more independence is desirable then the Government of Wales Act does not go far enough in that the power of primary legislation is not afforded to the Assembly. I am not sure that the ‘expectations of the people of Wales are clear. What is reasonable accepted ground is a disillusionment with politics in general and uncertainty about the role of the Assembly. It is seen by many as a waste of time and money; by others as a statement of national identity.

In essence this question covers the same territory – more independence reuiqres more direct legislative powers. Tax raising powers are the most obvious example of how the institution of Government can directly assert its influence and it is usually recognised the single largest difference between Scotland and Wales is the issue of tax raising powers. Other issues that occur include, for example, control of police force.

‘Inevitably’ is probably a little strong, but it is nevertheless very likely. It is important that citizens recognise how the institutions of government work and in the UK the parliamentary system is well understood. There are however different designs, not least of which is the European model, which accords the same principles but organisationally looks very different.

The citizenry would see a style of government that they are used to if modelled on the Westminster way of doing things. It is debatable whether the current model has produced a more consensual form of politics and the ability to work thematically has not been very evident in the first term. It is therefore likely that the losses will not be too great; the benefit may be clearer government for the public.

Given that the art of influence is sometimes a hidden one, it is very difficult fo rthe lay-person to determine the relative success or failure of the Assembly in influencing national policy. There are examples of where secondary legislation has been used to abolish testing in primary schools, to provide free school milk for infant children etc, and there is the high profile issue of Wales receiving Treasury support to match fund Objective 1. The ‘distinctly Welsh’ policies do tend on the whole to be products of secondary legislation and regulation. It is arguable however, that this has only been possible through ensuring sufficient space was created in the UK wide primary legislation. Reality is unclear.

Respecting that the question is asked at a principles level, the construct recognises the principle of subsidiarity with decision making being delegated to the institution closest to the public interface that has the capacity and competence to make the decision. In keeping with this AMs by their nature should be able to lead and articulate locally based issues in a much more intense way than MPs are able to. Similarly MPs should be able to represent constituency views and interests at the national level.

Again the answer depends on personal position. Unionists would claim that the inherent strength of a collective UK position on issues of national concern would be weakened in circumstances where Wales were empowered to take a different view to Westminster. The scale of this threat in reality is debatable as it is unlikely that primary legislation on issues such as defence will be devolved. There may be issues of economy of scale to address as well as capacity questions about the ability of the Civil Service to effectively service another institution with primary legislation capacity. Supporters of more independence would counter such positions based on the principle that decisions that influence people’s lives would be taken closer to home and are therefore likely to be more informed, relevant and better.

It is necessary to be clear about how much devolution is on the table. Absolute devolution would make it difficult to justify the role of Welsh MPs. Reality suggests however that such a position is unlikely and that primary law making, at least initially would be limited. As such Welsh MPs would continue to have a role in representing the interests of the Principality in all arenas where sovereignty of decision making remains in Westminster.

The same argument as that rehearsed in the previous question applies.

The gain may manifest as more specific policy positions directly aligned to Welsh needs rather than perhaps UK wide interests. The most obvious loss would be the skill and tacit knowledge that is currently ‘trade’ between Wales and England based policy teams and civil servants. It would be difficult for a country the size of Wales to replicate this pool of talent.

Such a complex judgement would have to develop in the medium term. Progress against national strategic targets for improvement which tend to be outcome based are the litmus test of success. A model to make such a judgement would probably need to apply the principles of the ‘balanced score card’ technique although making such a determination is not possible without meaningful information around which to form a judgement.

No view to offer.

It would seem difficult to justify an increase in the number of AMs, particularly given the recent public debate about how many days they actually spend in the Assembly.

To a degree the comment in the previous question is relevant here. If there is pressure on AMs then perhaps a rethink in terms of how Assembly sessions are organised to allow for more days would be helpful. Is there a justification in the modern age for the lengthy periods of recess that the Assembly has?

In terms of the earlier part of the question, it is difficult at a distance to form a view o the effectiveness of the processes of the Assembly. Perhaps it is relevant to suggest that the current ELWA experience is case studied to determine whether the Assembly could have acted differently in the establishment, assistance or monitoring of this Assembly Sponsored Body.

This is an impossible question to have an informed view on. Public perception of more reasonably well paid AMs is likely to be mixed at best.

What are the advantages, other than cost, of a relatively small Assembly which might be lost if numbers were increased?

• It is reasonably straightforward to identify accountabilities in a small organisation;

• It is possible that relative size incentivises more partnership working with other layers of government, particularly local government.

To a degree there may need to be a ‘suck it and see’ approach. More work may incentivise better priority setting and better delegation of issues to other bodies, particularly local government. If there were no new AMs there would have to be better focus.

We are probably not close enough to the Assembly to comment in detail. One area that offers opportunity however is to dramatically reduce the number of Plans that the Assembly require of Local Government. This would streamline processes significantly and create capacity to take on additional responsibilities.

Possibly, but without knowing the nature of the new powers and the resources required to discharge them, it is difficult to offer an informed view. It would be necessary to disaggregate workload issues between AMs and civil servants before coming to a view on numbers.

The position you take very much depends on your view of proportional representation. The current system clearly is designed to promote this and all the advantages and disadvantages it brings. Its downside perhaps is that the public struggle to understand the ‘list’ system and fail to see how candidates who failed to win a constituency seat still end up in the Assembly. This would be the place to express any view on only being able to stand as a constituency or a list candidate but not both.

You may choose to offer a view on political parties retaining the power to determine their own candidates or not. A more direct electoral system change challenges the sovereignty of the party to ultimately decide. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

The issue here is perhaps not so much a technical one as keeping clarity with the electorate over who represents them. Parliamentary boundaries are understood by the public, local government ward boundaries are reasonably understood – to introduce a third set of boundaries is hardly likely to promote a better understanding of electoral representation than is currently the case.

 In providing comments for you to consider I have attempted to maintain a neutral position and any lapses are unintentional. I trust you will find these comments helpful.

This would ensure that candidates who have been defeated under the first past the post system do not sneak in through the back door. We are seeing candidates for the Assembly having two bites at the cherry, indeed some Assembly Members have never won an election.

2.      If the Assembly is to retain a P R system it needs to radically overhaul the present system.

The allocation of regional seats is disproportionate to the votes cast

Labour 36% of vote No seats allocated

Plaid 19.7% of vote 7 seats allocated

Tories 19.2% of vote 10 seats

Lib Dems 12.7% of vote 3 seats

Thus we see a party who receives the most in the regional vote is left empty handed, whilst a party that is rejected under the First past the post system is rewarded with the greatest number of the regional allocation. This system cannot be a fair and equitable system and must come under close scrutiny in order to effect change before the next election."

"I feel that Welsh Assembly at present has more power than it can handle, until the AMs show that they can carry out their duties in a very professional manner then their powers should not be increased. We still have the most expensive hole in the ground (8 million plus) in Europe. Richard Rogers debacle which is still in question and with nothing to show for this waste of money. How can public have faith in these ministers."

The system of PR used disenfranchised tens of thousand of voters using their second vote. This second vote should be separated from the first if a fair representation according to votes cast is achieved.

Top up regional AM should be reduced to 10 and be all Wales candidates/ Members.

"The recent Assembly election showed a lamentable turn out which is a cause of concern to anyone interested in Politics as they affect Wales. I am 72 years of age and this is the first time that I failed to vote. There is not a single reason why I, and many friends and colleagues chose not to vote. One of the reasons was not being able to choose between the different parties standing for election. If the Assembly is to work for Wales and not a particular party with vested interests, the present FPTP, I believe, will have to be changed. The ‘Single Transferable Vote’ would enable people who are interested in the future of Wales, be it independence or otherwise, to put themselves forward for election independent of any party affiliation and could reflect a more wide church of opinion. Easy? No! Best for the future of Wales? Anything would be better than the system we are failing Wales with now!"

Ron Page

"The approach to debate in the Assembly unfortunately gives credence to the 'Talking Shop' charges. A possible reason for the foregoing, raises questions over the quality of representation."

"The National Assembly has acquitted itself well in its first four-year period. It should be allowed to progress towards the status accorded to the Scots Parliament. It has helped to raise the profile of Wales as a nation, and emphasises the contribution that Wales can continue to make to the United Kingdom. The National Assembly, as a body, should further its own standing by acting speedily and decisively in getting the building completed that is intended to be the home of the National Assembly."

"Surely this money would be better spent on schools, hospitals etc. They have used the one building without any serious inconvenience I am sure."

Margaret E. Williams

I.e. education wise, job wise, hospitals/health etc."

"Only people living in the valleys know what is needed to help unemployment, education and health issues. People living in England have different problems to us. So in my opinion the Assembly should be run by the Welsh for the Welsh. It can't be any worse than it is now."