Commission on the Powers and Electoral Arrangements of the National Assembly for Wales

7th Public Meeting held at Cardiff Thursday 10th July 2003

"I would like to see far more powers allocated to education and agriculture so that these areas become fully devolved allowing Wales to decide on matters such as university fees, student grants, GM crops etc."

Delme Bowen

The Welsh Assembly should have increased powers as a matter of urgency. The low turnout at the 2003 election is an indication of peoples disillusionment and misconceived understanding of the Assembly’s powers. People sincerely believed that they had powers to speak for Wales on my issues affecting their lives and we were very despondent to learn that they had even less powers than the Scottish Parliament.

Ray Davies

WB Evans

Clearly the majority of people thought the same as me as less than 25% of those able to vote in the referendum, actually supported the idea.

In fact my worst fears have been borne out, as we have seen millions spent on a new Assembly building, an awful lot of hot air spoken and I can't see that anything has been achieved. It even seems possible that a sixth level of democracy will be added, if some get their way, and we begin voting for members of the House of Lords!

In summary, the change I would wish to make would be to abolish the Welsh Assembly altogether and return to the previous combination of local government by County Councils with funding and major policy decisions provided by Westminster.

Regarding electoral arrangements, I feel that the number of Assembly Members should be increased to 80 and that they should be elected by some form of proportional representation."

As a general point it is important that the value of your work is not lost by presenting only conclusions that would not command widespread support at the present time, and thus risk being shelved for so long that events overtake them.  One way to avoid this would be that your report, after describing the consultation process, could set out a small number of options on an ascending scale of change from the present situation.   I could then recommend on what could be done at present, which would be likely to command wide support.  For the further options it could suggest a fairly open timescale for implementing them as stepped changes.  The timescale would depend on the Assembly and the central Government conclusions that circumstances (Assembly experience, resources, perceived general support) were in place and on required tests of support via inclusion in Assembly and Parliamentary manifestos (referendum?).

A list of options to be set out and discussed could feature

1. No change
2. Rounding up the implementation powers over presently devolved topics.
3. Broadening the devolved area over which the Assembly has implementation powers to include home office functions (police, courts, legal aid, probation, prisons).
4. Primary legislative powers over prescribed fields where a distincitve Wales dimension exists such as education and language culture
5. Primary legislative powers over all devolved areas.

Each of these could be supported in principle but subject their implementation being determined when it was perceived that the right base of experience and resources had been developed and the requisite levels of support being in place.

The first three could be achieved without amending the Government of Wales Act.   Only changes going beyond the Government of Wales Act should need prior support by inclusion in an election manifesto.  This approach of ascending options would lend itself to a gradual process of development as the Assembly, and the community of policy support in Wales, mature.  Also as the public understanding of the Assembly role grows.  It would give time to develop skills and resources at elected and staff levels so avoiding the potential for serious mistakes if the Assembly takes on too much too fast.  Some further comments on this are:

From experience some of the rounding up which should be justified at a very early date by a transfer of functions order include

• Powers under the Electricity Acts to decide on larger power stations and related matters such as power lines. The Assembly already has power over small power stations. The devolution of Electricity Act powers to Scotland was only clarified after 1999 and is a precedent
• Powers under the Harbours Acts to determine port proposals such as ferry port or cargo schemes. The Assembly already has powers in regard to Fisheries Harbours
• Powers over the Wales Transport Office and its functions. These powers were formerly exercised through Traffic Commissioner offices, one based in Cardiff covering South Wales and another for North Wales and the North West of England. These were merged into a Wales Transport Office, under the then Department of Transport, back in about 1996 but the new Wales office is based in Birmingham sharing accommodation with the Midlands office
• Powers to set up and manage a separate Planning Inspectorate for Wales, just as both Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own equivalent service but Wales is covered through a joint body with England
• Powers over building regulation matters
• Animal health powers. However this should be related to the re establishment of an animal health laboratory at a central location in Wales, run by the UK wide laboratory service. Following the closure of laboratories in North and South Wales by the last Conservative Government there is no laboratory facility in Wales despite the concentration of livestock.

On the potential for the Assembly to expand its area of responsibility beyond that of the old Welsh Office there are two alternative scenarios which could be put forward.   One is for the Assembly to have such powers quickly but I see issues there of the time needed to develop expertise at official and political level on handling very sensitive matters.  An alternative scenario which could also be proposed would be that in the short term the Home Office set up a Division for Wales.  This would remain in the Home Office but be based in Cardiff covering police, courts administration, prisons, probation, legal aid and so on.  There would be liaison with the Assembly.    The possible transfer to the Assembly would then be a matter for future consideration building on the development of Cardiff based expertise.

Based on my experience in the Welsh Office and Assembly I believe it takes time for all concerned to acquire expertise.  My preference in timescale would therefore be that having put forward the options a sensible timescale be suggested.  Possibly something along the lines of:

2004 transfer of functions order to round up Assembly implementation powers in presently devolved areas, and to tidy up any unclear areas

2004 – 2005 setting up a Wales Division of the Home Office liaising with the Assembly

2004 – 2007 A period of consolidation for the Assembly to use its present powers and the rounded up powers as well as developing links with the Home Office Wales Division

2007 Assembly Election an opportunity for parties to propose to the electorate any further proposals for acquiring control over Home office functions or for part or full legislative roles. Following the elections, and subject to the outcome, discussions with Whitehall would commence on implementing the former by a transfer of functions order or the latter by a new Government of Wales Bill. Whether or not a referendum were needed on proposals requiring a Bill could be left open to that time. A Bill to amend the Government of Wales Act could deal with matters such as how to split the Executive and legislature, to clarify the use of the term Minister, to allow greater flexibility for the Assembly in how to implement duties to have partnerships and other clarification.

To propose more members at the moment would be bound to damage the Assembly in the views of a general public whose views are somewhat negative and coloured by a selective press.  It should have to earn any extra members by developing its role and showing results.  For the present it could be suggested that acquiring some rounded up powers, liaising with Home Office Wales Division and possibly, after 2007, taking over the Home Office functions should be achieved with the present number of members.  Only if, again after 2007, there were to be legislative powers should the number be increased, and then by the minimum necessary, possibly from 60 to 65.

As the phased approach proposed would disappoint those wanting more legislative power at present possibly your report could suggest an interim improvement.  This could be in the form of a Concordat between the Assembly, the Wales Office and Parliament to guarantee the Assembly Parliamentary time for two bills a year, as well as Welsh clauses to general bills where appropriate.  This could be linked to procedures to ensure the Welsh MPs have a scrutiny role thereby helping involve them in the Assembly's activities and hopefully win their support and trust

Developing skills at policy development and legislative process takes time.  The Assembly needs to put effort into this even for its present work.  I suggest you consider whether to recommend it follows the route taken in Scotland.  There the Civil Service College (I think it may have recently changed its name from this), traditionally operating from accommodation in London and Sunningdale, has opened a training centre in Edinburgh.  A similar arrangement in Cardiff is needed.  This could provide high quality training for civil servants from the Assembly, but also those in other Government offices in Wales, and indeed for those in the many Government offices in nearby areas of England such as Bath, Cheltenham and Bristol who would find a Cardiff facility convenient.

I hope that you will find somethinig of interest in this flow of suggestions

It seems that opposition to stronger powers for the National Assembly has more to do with prejudice than any reasoned arguments. The Assembly should be given primary legislation and tax varying powers on the same basis as the Scottish parliament.

For the Assembly to depend on the Westminster Parliament to pass legislation on behalf of Wales is not satisfactory. How will this arrangement work, if and when different political parties are in power in Cardiff and London? Assembly members need to have clear powers and to know that they can develop and implement policies without depending on the good will of the government in London, with limited parliamentary time and perhaps little interest or understanding of Wales. I believe that the number of Assembly Members should be increased to at least 80 and be elected by a system of proportional representation. This could be achieved by either an increase in members elected by the Additional Member System or by wholly using a system of Single Transferable Vote."

My experience of the present electoral system is:

• Despite an element of PR, my vote failed to count (My preferred party won a constituency seat and hence not a list seat).

• I felt under pressure to vote tactically- ie to lie to the returning officer (because my preferred candidate and party were not one of the front runners. I did not like that experience, especially as the result was close between my second preference and another party which I did not support.

I want to see an end to tactical voting by the abolition of x voting and the introduction of preference voting (preferably in multi-member seats -single transferable vote-but failing that in single member constituencies and on the party list within one party list of the voters choice.

This submission is limited to three broad issues - the power of the Assembly, Its effectiveness, and the electoral arrangements.

Over the last few years we have begun to see policy changes implemented by the Assembly. This has culminated in an approach enshrined by the term a "Welsh Way". This has had an impact the area of public sector reform. This has included, for example, the creation of Local Health Boards, a new focus upon primary care, the promotion of a distinct educational agendas and the introduction of the Wales Programme of Improvement. These and other measures which amount to significant policy variation from Westminster.

We recognise that the distinct Welsh Agenda has been developed by the Assembly with its current legislative powers. These policies need to be further developed and fully implemented. This does not require the accession of any additional powers.

There are often comparisons made between the different powers of the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. The latter has primary legislative powers and specific tax raising powers. We note that the Scottish Parliament has not used its tax raising powers.

We also note that the existing National Assembly has only existed for four years. It was established with the support of only twenty five percent of the Welsh Population in a referendum. This referendum resulted in significant constitutional changes despite the low turnout... It is our view that if the Commission were to recommend an extension of powers, particularly in the realms of primary legislation, then a new referendum would need to be held, to assess whether there was support for such a radical change.

As indicated above, the Assembly has developed a distinct Welsh agenda in a large number of areas. In addition to major policy developments there have been a number of populist initiatives including free bus passes for pensioners and more latterly the Manifesto commitment to provide school breakfasts for young children.

It is our view that these new policies and initiatives need to "bed in" and prove their effectiveness. We are for example aware that despite new initiatives in the National Health Service which have been accompanied by significant additional expenditure, the impact on the health of the Welsh population is not yet evident. The National Assembly is a democratically elected body. However it still works through a whole range of non-elected qango's. We are concerned that the National Assembly should be seen to ensure that the democratic deficit in the control and powers exercised by these bodies is remedied. Overall, the policy initiatives have been limited to a small number of departments. There has not been a cohesive programme for change which is integrative and tackles all the major issues confronting the people of Wales.

The current electoral arrangements, provide for the direct election, on the "first past the post system, for "constituency AM’s" as well as AM’s elected via the regional list system. Anecdotal evidence from the last Assembly elections, seem to show quite a considerable number of spoilt papers. This may be an indication of the strong feelings of individuals regarding the existence of the National Assembly. More importantly, however, there was also evidence, from discussions with individuals, that the regional list voting paper was seen as extremely complex and difficult for individuals to understand. We also have a more fundamental problem with the regional list system. It does not provide a direct relationship between the AM and a constituency. It is a system which does not provide a direct link between the electors and the person elected to work on their behalf. Power without direct accountability? We therefore would not support the continuation of the regional list system for elections to the National Assembly. We also consider that 60 people are more than adequate, with the existing Assembly powers and remit, to achieve the visions set by the National Assembly. We consider that in the current climate it would be counter productive to seek to increase the number of AM’s. A more constructive debate would be on the policies and action developed by those individuals through the Assembly.

It was then decided that all senior citizens should enjoy free bus travel. Although this appeared to be excellent at first, it soon became apparent that large towns and cities could not cope with the extra cost and said it was necessary for Council Tax to increase.

Next we have seen millions of pounds spent on translation costs to satisfy the whims of the new ‘Welsh Learners’ when most people living in Wales are monoglot. I do object when I phone offices to have to wait whilst I am spoken to in Welsh before I am asked if I wish to converse in English. The English-speaking majority seem to be ignored!

I am unable to understand why prescriptions for those under 25 can be dispensed freely as long as they are dispensed in Wales. The Health Minister continually tells us how difficult things are despite the huge amounts being spent. Surely, it would be common sense to freely dispense prescriptions for the under 25s only if the prescription is for medicines prescribed by a Doctor in Wales.

Objective One money was going to cure all ills, but the jobs it was supposed to generate do not seem to have materialised.

Again, what about E.L.W.A? Surely we have experts in Wales who could monitor these grants.

Members of the Assembly have ensured their pensions are inflation-proofed. Are they still hoping for large salary increases, as well as enlarging their number to 80 members – a mere 33 1/3% increase?

However, most of the foregoing pales into insignificance at the Assembly’s undemocratic decision to defer Local Elections until 2004. This idea first saw the light of day when Mr Peter Law was Minister for Local Government and, when I expressed my concern in a letter to him, he did me the courtesy of replying and telling me that no definite decision had been made but he would keep me informed. Nothing further was heard until Mrs Edwina Hart took Local Government affairs under her general umbrella following the Lab-Lib Agreement.

When the matter came to light again I contacted Mrs Hart’s secretary and received a telephone call from a civil servant to advise me that soundings were being taken now but that in any case I should contact my constituency AM – Mr Rhodri Morgan. I did this and received a post card saying that he had received my letter and would be in touch whenever a decision was made. The silence has been deafening! This was understandable a short time later when it was announced in the Press – not given any publicity on T.V. or Radio – that after due research Mrs Hart had decided that Local Elections would be deferred until 2004 because the Electorate was happy with this. One cannot help but wonder if the only people whose opinion was sought were those who could be guaranteed to give the answer the Assembly wanted. To add insult we were told deferring the Local Elections was necessary because we might get mixed up having to vote for so many candidates at one time. How patronising! I wonder how we all managed in the days when the only information on a Ballot Paper were the names of the various candidates. How dare they patronise us like this?

Now we hear that they are minded to choose another alternative date in 2004 for Local Elections because May would conflict with European Elections and ‘we might be confused and mixed-up’. What are they afraid of? They made sure we didn’t have the Devolution date in Wales on the same day as Scotland. If we had, I am sure the outcome would have been different. Unfortunately, those in power seem to be unaware of Economics – they are so free with Public Funds.

Perhaps they should wait before proceeding with the proposed Assembly Building. If a Referendum were held tomorrow I am sure there would be a large turn-out and I am in no doubt as to what the result would be.