COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES |
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS |
of the |
EVIDENCE OF: |
Young People’s Session |
held at |
St George’s Hotel, Llandudno |
On |
27 March 2003 |
In Attendance: |
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Lord Richard |
| Good afternoon. Thank you for coming. You are going to do a presentation for us first are you? Okay. Right. |
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(Start of Powerpoint Presentation) |
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Carwyn |
| We are representatives from the Wrexham, Conwy and Gwynedd youth; we are members of the forums from each of these counties. |
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Zoe |
| The first meeting was planned originally in Wrexham on 25 February 2003, attended by all three counties. We looked in the meeting at how we could take the ideas of the group forward into a manageable programme. This was the first time the three counties met and we had a thorough discussion about the Assembly. From this we decided that it was a very valuable option for us to speak to you today. |
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Zoe |
| On Monday the 10th and Tuesday the 11th… |
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Carwyn |
| …of March 2003 we went down to Cardiff to visit the National Assembly for Wales. |
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Sacha |
| Before we went down to Cardiff we decided it would be a good opportunity for us to interview and discuss with key people before going down. We spoke to the Chief Executive and the Head of Education, Dafydd Wigley, Hywel Williams, and we thought that it would be a good opportunity to get their opinion before we came down. |
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Carwyn |
| We saw a debate in the Scottish Parliament Debate Chamber. At the time we entered the Scottish Parliament we didn't know what they were debating about because we did not have a tour. But in the Welsh Parliament, no. We had a proper talk and tour and we know what they were doing and how they were running things. |
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Christina |
| This visit to the National Assembly: during our education tour of the Welsh Assembly, we interviewed Assembly Member Janet Ryder, we observed the plenaries and interviewed the First Minister, Rhodri Morgan. |
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Carwyn |
| During the visit with Scottish Parliament we visited the Parliament information centre and viewed a meeting of the Scottish Parliament and their debating Chamber. |
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Zoe |
| After these visits we decided on what we thought of the Assembly. There are two groups to this group; some are in favour of a Parliament, and others are quite happy with the Assembly. Wales can make its own laws, and new laws can also be influenced by Wales and Welsh people. |
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Jose |
| I like the Welsh Assembly the way it is but I would prefer to see Wales as a Nation. |
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Louise |
| We have more respect as a Nation. |
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Natalie |
| Coming up to the British formula where England would have a certain amount of money and separate from Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. If we became a Parliament, then perhaps it would be shared equally and not just be a lump sum for England… just little bits, because we don't get enough money in what we do. |
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Carla |
| Proportional representation will lead to consensual politics, but in reality the Assembly has a long way to go to achieve this. Westminster is one-Party dominated. |
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Carwyn |
| The other group is not in favour and not opposed to a Parliament and what we feel is that what the Welsh Assembly Government has achieved for Wales is good, as there are more opportunities for young people. My personal opinion on this is that (I have just written a small amount), what I have said is that the Assembly is only four years old. It is still young, and we have to think of it as a child, a four-year-old child. And if through foot and mouth mistakes were made, that was because it was so young, and things were not done properly if you understand what I mean. |
| I think that it should get more powers in the future but I think that at present it is doing well as it is on things, for example, like establishing the youth forums; ‘Funky Dragon’, young peoples partnerships, free prescriptions and dental checks up for the under 25’s. |
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Sacha |
| And also things have improved for young people since the Assembly started. There has only been a short period of time; a longer period of time would allow the Assembly to progress on what it has already achieved. |
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Christina |
| We don't have the confidence in the present ruling Party that they would drive forward for a Parliament and have the skills to maintain an effective and successful Parliament. |
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Natalie |
| What do the majority of young people have in the future in Wales? The future of Wales belongs to the young people of Wales. That is it. The end! |
| (End of Powerpoint Presentation) |
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Lord Richard |
| Well now, how many of you are in each group? |
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Carwyn |
| In the group where we think it is okay right now? |
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Lord Richard |
| Put your hands up. |
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Carwyn |
| In each county? |
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Tom Jones |
| How many are in favour? |
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Christina |
| These three are happy enough with the Welsh Assembly and the rest believe in Parliament. |
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Lord Richard |
| I see. Can we ask you about what you mean by Parliament? Does it mean independence? |
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Zoe |
| Not complete independence because Scotland is not completely independent - it still has its links with Westminster. But I personally believe that a lot of Wales' laws have to go through Westminster, and you know they have to join the massive queue and it has to go through Wales itself mainly. It just seems Wales has to wait until people are ready to take those Laws. I just feel that we should have a little more say, a little bit more independence. |
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Lord Richard |
| It is a Scottish sort of model that you might look at? |
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Zoe |
| Yes, because their legislation is made there. All their legislation relates to the Scottish people, and you know, here legislation may be through England and Wales, and perhaps our take on things is a little bit different to England. Maybe a Parliament would help us in that way. |
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Lord Richard |
| I see. |
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Ted Rowlands |
| What do you think is different - what Welsh problems have we got that are different from English problems? Exclusion, poverty in England, you have got poverty and exclusion in Wales? What other distinctive problems are there that Wales is facing – why are there different solutions? What is different? |
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Louise |
| We have our language. |
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Lord Richard |
| That is not a problem. |
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Louise |
| It certainly is not. |
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Lord Richard |
| It is a plus, not a minus. |
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Louise |
| Look how much of a problem it was today for you. We wanted to present it in Welsh for you and you know it is a bit…just things like that. We tend to feel England is bigger than Wales and perhaps just something tends to get forgotten in the rural area. |
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Christina |
| Wales is a beautiful country because it should be recognised more than England. England spends money on the Dome; a million pounds on a Dome that could go on to hospitals or something to do with Wales. Half of our money has gone to that and it is just a total box, it is a waste. |
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Peter Price |
| Are you happy for money to go on the new Assembly building? |
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Louise |
| As we went to tour around the Scottish building, well, it was so busy that we didn't have enough time to go all around, but in the Welsh Assembly they had enough time to explain to us. They had a debate and they were telling us what the debate was about. But in Scotland we didn't have a clue what they were talking about. |
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Sacha |
| South Wales has already got one Assembly - why do they have to build another one in the Southwest? Why don’t they try to build one up here? |
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Peter Price |
| How do you feel about the North and the South, tell us? |
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Christina |
| I think there is a lot of division. I think that priorities are given to South Wales because the Assembly and stuff is South Wales and we have got nothing. |
| Up here all you have is your AM. And it is like one or two days, we have got to book an appointment or whatever, you can't go there any time of the week and talk to them. You have got to go into South Wales or they have got to go to South Wales. You have got nothing to represent the Welsh Assembly you know. |
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Peter Price |
| Suppose once a year for a week everything was brought up for that week and met somewhere in North Wales - would that make an impact? |
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Carwyn |
| No. |
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Christina |
| Yes. |
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Carla |
| If one week of the year it is here and the rest of the week it is there. |
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Peter Price |
| What would you seek that would have some real impact to change this appreciation of it all being in Cardiff? What practical ideas do you have to solve that problem? |
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Carwyn |
| An Office here in North Wales rather than everyone having to travel to Cardiff. What we have learnt is that Ministers are down there between Monday and Thursday and the same for Members. Why can't those in South Wales meet in South Wales and those from North Wales meet in North Wales rather than having to travel back and forth continually? That is how I feel anyway, that we have to travel all the way down there. For me, the Assembly represents South Wales; I don't think that we are represented here. |
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Tom Jones |
| How much information do you get in schools and colleges about the Assembly? |
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Zoe |
| We have learnt this through the forum - we have done it ourselves. |
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Tom Jones |
| If you hadn't done it yourself would you know anything? How do you think that education actually gives information about the way that we are governed? |
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Carwyn |
| It not…it's just the school. I think people in general do not know what the Assembly does, so I think that we have to balance this out so that people - older people and young people - get educated. |
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Zoe |
| I have learnt a lot from parents since being involved. They had no idea – they know just as much as I do; well, even I know more than they do about the Assembly. |
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Tom Jones |
| Well, do you think the Assembly could do better in explaining it? |
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Sacha |
| Yes maybe it should go around schools, and/or have more meetings with young people. Just to show that there is some interest, that they are taking an interest. |
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Zoe |
| Maybe nothing will come out at the end of the day but young people would at least then get into their heads that the Assembly does take an interest in them and they are quite willing if they were to come and see us. |
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Tom Jones |
| Do you think your forum could develop enough to give opinions on all sorts of activities within the Assembly, not just the Assembly itself as a body for or against but on the work of the Assembly in terms of the education, health, environment? Do you think you could meet often enough to get in touch with your fellow members in the schools to actually present your opinion so the young people’s opinions are represented in all areas? |
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Christina |
| That is what we are intending to do already. We do hold two or three meetings anyway. |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| The Scottish Parliament has got something similar to that. I am sure they hold some form of Youth Parliament. They try to ensure that all different parts of Scotland – the young people in different parts of Scotland - are represented. Would that be something that you would favour? |
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Zoe |
| We come from Gwynedd, the rest come from Wrexham and their problems are different to ours. We have got problems in transport etc; they have got a little more violence towards where they are. You know it is little things like that that we have, and we tend to feel that people from different areas come together and get a bigger picture of Wales itself. |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| What do you think of the politics in the Assembly? They are not typical of politicians in some senses. There are more women for a start, you know. Was that noticeable when you were there? |
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Carwyn |
| When we went to Scotland? |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| In Wales, though you could apply it to both of them. |
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Carwyn |
| Well, it was clear that there was more confidence in the Assembly because when we visited the Chamber in Scotland, they were quite quiet. They seemed to be moving around a lot but it depends on the day I suppose, and what they have to be discussing. When we visited the Assembly they were questioning Rhodri Morgan. They were far livelier, there was more of a debate; there were far more arguments. It was nice to see really, it was quite exciting. |
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Louise |
| We were high up in the Welsh Assembly, we were more on the same level, and we could hear them. |
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Lord Richard |
| When they have the new building they will be up there? |
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Natalie |
| Why would it have to be a new building? |
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Lord Richard |
| We are not here to defend the building. We are here to listen to people, not to defend the policy. They do ask very good questions don't they? |
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Paul Valerio |
| They ask very good questions. |
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Lord Richard |
| Do you use forums in other parts of Wales? Is this a body of opinion? |
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Tom Jones |
| Tell us about ‘Funky Dragon’. |
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Carwyn |
| I represent Gwynedd on the Grand Council. Gwynedd is a large county so it is (this is my personal opinion) - there should be two there from every county and Gwynedd is huge. It takes how long to get to Blaenau Ffestiniog? Where we live it takes about an hour; it is a huge county. But I am glad that there is a group and an Assembly for the young people of Wales: what is called ‘Funky Dragon’. |
| So I am glad that has been established and also Glanteg, and also that the Assembly has asked to set up another youth partnership and Sacha and myself sit on that in Gwynedd. And they've also set up youth forums so that is a good step forward. |
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Lord Richard |
| When you meet with those all-Wales bodies, what is the general feeling about the Assembly in that body? For example, are they split the same way that you are? |
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Carwyn |
| Well I think that they have far more confidence. When I meet with people from South Wales they are far more confident. I find myself stepping back and just let them to do the talking because they have been influenced more in South Wales. That is where it is has been established so they feel at home there. And we feel like we are 100 miles away, which we are quite literally. |
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Lord Richard |
| Don't you think this ought to be in the capital? |
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Carwyn |
| Well, yes, but there should be Offices around Wales. For me, the Assembly should have been established in mid-Wales because that is where we meet as ‘Funky Dragons’. There is one residential meeting now coming up in the next month, that is in Bala, and then the next one will be in mid-Wales and the one after that in South Wales. We move around to make it fair for everyone. But I don't think that the Assembly really does that because it has been established solely in Cardiff. I don't see that as being fair. |
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Lord Richard |
| The Assembly can move actually. When I was in the European Parliament and they met monthly and moved everything from Brussels and Luxembourg down to Strasbourg for a week then all back again. Apart from being pretty inconvenient it was extraordinarily expensive. I wouldn't be in favour of moving around. |
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Carwyn |
| Well I am not saying that it should move around, it is ‘Funky Dragon’ that does that. But what I am saying it's that there should be an Office in North Wales where the Member for North Wales can meet and Ministers can meet. |
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Zoe |
| If they do have any questions about the Assembly young people in North Wales should be able to access an Office in North Wales and then they would feel that they do have some sort of say and some sort of input. Something that simple. We are not talking about moving the Assembly all the way to North Wales, we understand that that would be a complete waste of time. But if we do have complaints or questions to ask we should not have to travel five hours in a car to go and ask one question. |
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Christina |
| We could do so in an hour to travel North Wales; we don't have to travel five hours to Cardiff on the train and in a car. It is easier if you have access to an Office in North Wales. |
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Eira Davies |
| You mentioned the things that have improved since the establishment of the Assembly, that there were more opportunities for young people. In what way has the Assembly had an impact on you as young people in your communities? Or maybe it has not affected you? |
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Carwyn |
| We wouldn't be here if it was not for the Assembly because we are part of the youth forum and part of the young youth partnership and ‘Funky Dragon’. So we would not be here today if it was not for the Assembly. |
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Eira Davies |
| So before you became involved you knew hardly anything about the Assembly. You then became part of this forum, and you have now learnt a great deal about the Assembly. What is the next step for you as young people as far as the Assembly is concerned? |
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Carwyn |
| To take part - participate and see where it goes next. |
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Zoe |
| To put the information we have forward to other people because if it does change we will have to live with it in the future. We need to try to show young people that it is our future that we are talking about, so we want to pass on the information we have to others so they can then pass it on to other people, so that more people become aware of the Assembly and the kind of work it is doing. |
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Ted Rowlands |
| What do you think about politicians? Would any of you like to become politicians? |
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Louise |
| I would. I think about it in the Welsh Assembly actually. It looks fun. |
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Paul Valerio |
| When we come to do the other half of this exercise we are in, the electoral arrangements, do you think we should consider lowering the voting age and/or making it easier for young people to stand for election? |
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Natalie |
| From the way it stands now there seems to be more young people leading away from voting because we just don't know. Before I came and I went to these three groups and started to get involved, I didn't know anything about the Government panels and all that. I am old enough to vote; I wouldn't vote because I do not know what is what. |
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Zoe |
| If you're thinking about lowering the age I think in some ways you should be talking a little bit about the Government, maybe even friendly presentations where you can learn what the policies of the different groups are. Because at times you see a political broadcast on television, but what they are saying goes straight over your head. You don't understand it. So if people did want to lower the age maybe we should consider giving us a little bit more information that we could understand. |
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Tom Jones |
| Not just being for politicians, there is a lot of work going on in the Assembly providing information for politicians in the areas of health, education, environment. Are you interested in that work as civil servants? |
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Zoe |
| I did help in the Plaid Cymru Office in Llandudno in the summer and that has been an extremely valuable experience to me, to see that there is so much more going on than just the politics. There is so much more behind it and people can actually give their opinions and express themselves. I do think that the Assembly is actually creating a great many jobs in Wales as well. It has been a way for us to move forward in that career perhaps. |
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Tom Jones |
| Well, the Assembly Cabinet publishes its minutes on the web. Have you read them? |
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Christina |
| I had no idea before I visited the Assembly that such a thing existed until we were actually given a pack that told us where the websites were. I did not know where to start to look to be honest. |
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Ted Rowlands |
| If you could change something what would you change in Wales? |
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Louise |
| Change my school for a start. It is massive. It is a mess but they are building it. |
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Ted Rowlands |
| A physical mess? |
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Louise |
| It has taken ages for them to do it. It is falling to pieces. |
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Natalie |
| I would change the way that they ask for a grant– we get forms and they are just so full of – |
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Ted Rowlands |
| Boxes. |
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Natalie |
| It is unbelievable what you have to fill out to get a grant. I would change the form so that it would become less complicated. You would, you know, just put your name etc - just more simple. |
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Ted Rowlands |
| What about the rest? You will knock the – build a new school, yes. You would have fewer forms or simpler forms? |
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Zoe |
| The way transport is run for instance. There is massive lack of transport in rural areas, and buses are a mess. |
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Sacha |
| One bus a day. |
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Zoe |
| I have to travel on the bus from 50 minutes there and back, to an hour and 40 minutes, just to get to my college and home and I have to use the service. How many times that that has broken down in the last two years is incredible. You know, it is just little things like that. |
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Rachael |
| I think that we should be more serious if you know what I mean, on serious things more than less serious things. |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| Like what? |
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Carla |
| Violence. |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| Street violence? |
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Carla |
| Instead of just like – |
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Carwyn |
| Wasting money there I think anyway. |
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Lord Richard |
| Is there much street violence and mugging? |
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Louise |
| In Wrexham. I think there is everywhere really but we have got a bigger problem, especially when alcohol is involved. Falling down in the streets, they have a bit to drink, then they start fighting and the police are there straightaway – there are millions of them. |
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Louise |
| It was on Crimewatch last night. There was one in Conwy and somewhere in a nature reserve people were fighting. It should be more secure. People just walk in, steal stuff, and walk back out. |
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Lord Richard |
| What else would you change? |
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Jose |
| I don't know. The difference is really from North to South Wales. South Wales is more…everything is in South Wales. |
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Ted Rowlands |
| Too simple. |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| What do you think about the idea we keep on hearing about in the North - that Wales is a divided country and that there are big differences between those of you from South Wales and those of you who come from North Wales. How do you see your future? Do you look to be based in the North? Do you look to Liverpool and Manchester as places where you may move in the future, or do you think Cardiff might be somewhere you might think about? Cardiff is a bit of a big City now, with lots of attractions. |
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Louise |
| It depends on the prices, because houses cost so much. I have been looking for a place and it costs so much. Houses are about £200,000 - wow! |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| In Cardiff or in Wales? |
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Louise |
| In North Wales. In Liverpool everything costs so much - how can you afford it? You look to your Mum until you get more money. |
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Carwyn |
| The problem with housing as well, is that when it is so expensive you see people from outside moving in. They are not making it fair for local people. They just raise the prices too high and don't bring them down. |
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Ted Rowlands |
| Should this policy be changed? |
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Carwyn |
| If they got more power then going to college – I was thinking of Liverpool and Manchester – I would rather travel two hours than go down to Cardiff. It is quite scary for me to go over to Liverpool without going down to Cardiff but I want to be close enough to home but far enough away, so I think Liverpool or Manchester will be much better for me than Cardiff would be. |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| I can recommend Liverpool. I teach there. |
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Paul Valerio |
| What factors would influence where you seek to find a job? You have talked about cost of housing. |
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Peter Price |
| It seems to be a common problem across Wales – proximity to your home. It is a factor for the North West of England if you are going outside Wales. But what are the attractions of Cardiff like when compared to the attractions of the North-West? If you were going outside Wales, what are the things that would hold you where you are? |
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Natalie |
| There is nothing to hold where I am apart from friends. |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| Is that Wrexham? |
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Natalie |
| Yes. There is nothing to keep me in Wrexham at all. I would much rather be away from Wales at the moment because it is just a mess It stands as the South and the North: it is separated, and it should not be like that. It should be together. |
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Lord Richard |
| That is a fair view – it has been many years like that. |
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Zoe |
| I don't think I will ever live where I am now when I am older because of the jobs that I would like to have. You know, you have dreams and all this, and you would never reach your goals here. Where I am in south Meirionydd I could never get a proper job. There is nothing there for us and so you move away. And then again you move away and you've got higher prices than we have got at home so it is a big hurdle at the moment. |
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Lord Richard |
| Can I ask you a question - how many of you see your working life outside Wales rather than inside? |
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Natalie |
| Out. |
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Zoe |
| I am going to the South. |
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Paul Valerio |
| What do you feel about the voting system? The Welsh Assembly two systems of voting, first past the post and the other. Which do you think is a good balance or would you rather all one or all the other or another system? What do you think would be better? |
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Carwyn |
| I am too young, I can't comment. |
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Zoe |
| What we understood after going to visit the Assembly was that the first past the post was the majority party Most of the Parties don't get equal representation in the Assembly. I found that a little bit ridiculous to be honest because, yes, maybe Labour is in Parliament in Westminster, fair enough, but Wales’ opinion may be different. Wales is all regions, besides which party they want to nominate to represent. What I found out from what I understood is that it seems that it does not matter what you vote, it is the first past the post that made people…I have lost where I have gone now. |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| Would you want there to be a sort of better balance between how you vote and who gets elected, is that what you mean? |
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Zoe |
| Yes. Because it seems you voted but then again, it is just numbers or percentages. |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| You want more of the proportional type? |
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Zoe |
| Yes. |
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Paul Valerio |
| How many of you can identify who your AM and who your MP is, and what is it you feel is the main difference between them as far as how you approach them? |
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Sacha |
| My MP is not even here as much as my AM is. |
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Zoe |
| Yes. There is an AM for us who is really approachable, so I don't know. But I don't think there is much difference for both of them to represent us. |
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Christina |
| One wants to be involved with any problems. We are part of a group and we go around and talk about business and families. He has actually nominated himself for us to go there and see and listen. I think he was quite approachable too. |
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Ted Rowlands |
| How many of you have been to Westminster? |
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Carwyn |
| I have been to London but I have not been inside the Houses of Parliament. I have been outside. |
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Ted Rowlands |
| Outside but not inside? |
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Carwyn |
| Yes. |
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Louise |
| If you want to go and see London it is going to be a long journey again, so it is going to cost a lot of money to get down there to stay the night, have some food, and you have got to travel all the way back up. That is why it should be separate, so we know what it is like. |
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Paul Valerio |
| If you certainly do well perhaps you could have the opportunity to speak to some of your MP's, they might be better informed? |
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Dr Laura McAllister |
| I think you should have systems to promote different groups as politicians, like women and young people, and say people with disabilities. Do you think it is a good idea to actually have some scheme whereby you promote a particular group to ensure that they have a formal representation? |
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Natalie |
| To get our point of view across, our point of view really because what they talk about is nothing to do with young people, but may involve them starting the youth group and then they put buildings for youth groups; all that type of thing. It is just to be honest, as if we were there, and we were telling our point of view, and what we think should be happening in Wales then perhaps it would get done. Do you know what I mean? |
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Zoe |
| You cannot expect one representative to think about all the different groups, and then areas. Each young person’s opinion is completely different to everybody's special needs, young families, and all this. You can't expect one person to think about all the different aspects experiences and opinions |
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Lord Richard |
| We have all been young once. |
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Zoe |
| People tend to forget that, don't they? No offence! |
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Paul Valerio |
| Dependent on which side of the room you are sitting is how you feel. |
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Zoe |
| There should be a Minister. |
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Tom Jones |
| Do you know if there is a Minister with special responsibility for young people? |
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Carwyn |
| No. But I met the Minister in ‘Funky Dragon’; I do think they did listen to me. Jane Davidson was the best. |
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Tom Jones |
| She is the Minister for Education so she is responsible for young people as well, isn't she? |
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Carwyn |
| Yes. I felt that she did listen to me, to us, in the meeting. |
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Peter Price |
| What are the things that make you proud of being Welsh? |
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Carwyn |
| To speak the Welsh language. |
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Louise |
| Yes, it is amazing. |
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Carwyn |
| The Culture. |
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Peter Price |
| Culture…distinctive. |
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Natalie |
| History. |
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Louise |
| There is so much history for people to go and visit. It is a big place, and so interesting, and Wales has got a lot of history– it is so nice and quiet and peaceful. |
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Peter Price |
| I am getting the idea of scenery: the countryside and geography is important in Wales. |
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Paul Valerio |
| I am surprised you have not mentioned rugby. |
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Zoo |
| We were keeping quiet; we were saying it softly. |
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Carwyn |
| Rugby is in South Wales – that is a South Wales thing. |
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Ted Rowlands |
| You do well. |
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Paul Valerio |
| You do well in soccer. |
|
Peter Price |
| I have noticed – Paul picked up that you have not mentioned any of the teams but you also have not mentioned the National Assembly. |
|
Christina |
| I am still sticking to my thing. I am not against it, I am not for it. I think we have got a long way to go until we can sort of put ourselves right. So I will say I am for the Welsh Assembly but I do not have the faith that we can actually carry out. |
|
Dr Laura McAllister |
| Trust thinks other groups are more attractive to young people particularly those of from Welsh-speaking parts of Wales. Clubs like the Urdd. Do you think they appeal to young people in the way that some of the Political Parties do not at the moment? If so, why is that? |
|
Zoe |
| The main reason young people join these in Gwynedd is because they really have got this fire in them and young people think 'wow!', there is somebody actually doing something. I mean as young people, as all of you should know, you want to rebel, you want to be heard, so that is probably why the people joined. Then again, if these people – if political parties, I don't know, make their appeal just a little bit more, maybe you would get things done more. |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| Are you doing anything about the Assembly Elections; I mean are you having a mock election? |
|
Carwyn |
| No. Nothing. |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| Why not? |
|
Tom Jones |
| No? |
|
Zoe |
| No interest. |
|
Carwyn |
| I think – |
|
Zoe |
| Not with us, but, you know, my friends, I have no idea, and they do not care. They just do not seem to care. That is a bit sad really. |
|
Lord Richard |
| Are you going to work in the elections for a particular party, whichever party it is? Are you actually going out and knocking on doors? |
|
Louise |
| They are not going to actually listen to us really. |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| Why not? |
|
Carwyn |
| They see us as bad people. |
|
Zoe |
| What would we know? |
|
Carwyn |
| Not bad like that but - |
|
Lord Richard |
| You do not need to know very much actually. It is just knocking on doors. |
|
Dr Laura McAllister |
| Did you say you worked for Plaid Cymru in this area? Are you going to do anything now in the election campaign, or was that last summer? |
|
Zoe |
| I don't know. I think I am not tying myself down yet I don't understand, you know. It was more work experience that time. Yes. |
|
Dr Laura McAllister |
| You don't want to go out canvassing? |
|
Zoe |
| Yes, it is too early for me. |
|
Lord Richard |
| Would you vote? |
|
Zoe |
| Not of age. I won't be of age on 1st May. |
|
Paul Valerio |
| If you had a vote. |
|
Lord Richard |
| If you had a vote would you vote? |
|
Paul Valerio |
| Yes. |
|
Natalie |
| If we had the information, then yes. If we knew a lot more. |
|
Lord Richard |
| Some of you have got votes haven't you? |
|
Dr Laura McAllister |
| You said you have. |
|
Natalie |
| I am old enough to vote. |
|
Paul Valerio |
| Apathy in the elections is one of the biggest problems at any age isn't it? |
|
Natalie |
| I was told if you don't vote then you cannot complain about what has been done. |
|
Lord Richard |
| I agree with that. I think that is absolutely correct. |
|
Natalie |
| Yes. I think I will vote. Just vote for somebody who I don't think will go in so it will not pass judgement. |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| In the past there have been great figures like Lloyd George, or Nye Bevan and a lot of others from Wales, and they threw themselves into politics at an early age and worked their way up. And presumably, they saw themselves having a positive future and I just wondered if you never sort of thought about stepping into it, of having a go and a try? |
|
Zoe |
| I am going to University next year. I am going to study international politics so I am going to as well with Welsh, I am going to do an equal subject. So I hope. |
|
Lord Richard |
| A University in Wales? |
|
Zoe |
| I am going to Aberystwyth, yes. |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| Will you join all the political parties when you get there? |
|
Zoe |
| That will be telling wouldn't it! |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| I did when I was at Oxford, I joined every single one but just for interest. |
|
Zoe |
| Yes. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| Do you all want to go to University, is that your immediate future? |
|
Carwyn |
| Yes. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| University? Yes? |
|
Louise |
| I am not staying in school. Because I would not want to go to University. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| You don't want to go to University, why not? |
|
Louise |
| I have stayed out of school to do my GNVQ, my ICT and then I am just going; fingers crossed I will be going to be a receptionist on a cruise ship. But fingers crossed: it is still far away. |
|
Lord Richard |
| It is a long way away to work. |
|
Louise |
| Exactly. |
|
Lord Richard |
| Can I ask you who elected you? How did you come to be on the forum? Was it an election? |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| Self-elections? |
|
Sacha |
| Names in a hat. |
|
Dr Laura McAllister |
| If you come to schools and college. |
|
Christina |
| We are forums already. There are ten of us, and then we were asked to come. Everybody who wanted to go put their hands up, then because there were too many, because we said there were three, four from each county I mean, it had to be names out of a hat. |
|
Lord Richard |
| There was an election – you know, within your school or something like that? |
|
Zoe |
| I started from the school council, and from the school council there was information that there were forums in Gwynedd. |
|
Lord Richard |
| That’s the same in Wrexham is it? |
|
Natalie |
| What sort? No we just volunteered to go. |
|
Louise |
| We had a youth forum and so we went to Dublin and we stayed there overnight and we met every Thursday afternoon. But then we stopped doing school and then I went back and we went different ways. We had to phone up one day, and she asked if I wanted to do something about the Welsh Assembly? I said yes fine. And I did it for a free trip but then when I was talking before I went to the Welsh Assembly she told me what it was about and then I gradually learnt what it was about. |
|
Lord Richard |
| Do you report back to anybody in your school for example? If you're a forum representative for your school, do you go back and tell them what has happened? |
|
Sacha |
| On my school council as well, yes, it was like a link. Because I am on the forum I am also allowed to be part of the school council. So then there is a representative from every year in the school council so they have to feed back what I have said. |
|
Paul Valerio |
| We hear a lot about equal opportunities for women. How come Carwyn is lucky enough to be the only man? |
|
Carwyn |
| Probably because I was only one of two boys at the forum meeting at that time. So actually I was there because I was a reserve. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| The point about the North/South – what about the great world outside, have you been on travels? |
|
Carwyn |
| Yes. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| My daughter has gone to Japan for two years. Do you all want to go back-packing somewhere – to Australia for example? |
|
Zoe |
| Yes. |
|
Louise |
| Yes, I want to go to Australia because of my aunts and uncles - I haven't seen them for like ages, and my Dad says if you have enough money, go and see them. And then I have loads of aunts and uncles around everywhere and I want to travel everywhere. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| And the rest of you yes? You are going to go backpacking? |
|
Jose |
| Yes. Somewhere hot. |
|
Paul Valerio |
| Where do you want to go? |
|
Rachael |
| America. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| Where is the most attractive place in the world? |
|
Carla |
| Here. Here. Yes. |
|
Lord Richard |
| You don't think Wrexham is the biggest place in the world do you? |
|
Louise |
| I go for scenery as well because Canada has got beautiful scenery. I would like to go there. |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| Thinking of going to Australia and Canada, they have huge countries with a Parliament. For those huge countries in each case they are 3,000 miles apart and you complained about North and South Wales: it is 100 miles something like that, and that is 3,000 miles. People go to the Parliament, take part, and there is a Youth Parliament; they dress up and have a gown and wigs and things and take part in the debates. And if they can do it in Australia, or Canada, which is the same sort of thing, I mean as you said it is only four years old, surely little time is divided between North and South. |
| There will be transport in Australia one can assume, you are not going to get improvement without trying, I don't think. The point I am really trying to put to you is that isn't it worth trying to improve this divide? |
|
Tom Jones |
| One of the ways that can be done is that the Millennium Stadium has a trust and it will be providing travelling costs for groups of young people from one part of Wales to go and exchange with other parts of Wales. So if you want to go to South Wales or East or West, learn about it, there are grants available. |
|
Paul Valerio |
| Does it appeal to go backpacking in Swansea? |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| Not Australia. |
|
Zoe |
| We are going to take part in the exchange for South Wales. |
|
Sacha |
| Cardiff youth. |
|
Paul Valerio |
| Cardiff is not really South-West, Cardiff is Cardiff. There is an awful lot of nice South Wales as well. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| Some of you mentioned Europe – you think that we belong to Members of the European Union? Do you see Europe as an old hat or are you not really interested? |
|
Zoe |
| I think Europe is a bit scary at the moment because the influence it has over Westminster itself is amazing. Just how they have only just begun and that they are changing laws every five minutes at the moment aren't they? And it just seems it has such immense big power over Westminster already it seems a bit scary to me to be honest, a bit daunting. |
|
Lord Richard |
| A good or thing or a bad thing? |
|
Zoe |
| Well, since this War it has been a bit of a bad thing hasn't it, because all the unions within Europe are divided over opinion. And just thinking - after this War, what is going to happen? How are they going to get back together after such a big difference in opinion? |
|
Lord Richard |
| Some would say that was not the fault of the European Union. |
|
Zoe |
| Again the EU has brought them together, it does have a bit of responsibility over these countries, you know, coming together. They are supposed to be one unit aren't they? |
|
Lord Richard |
| Moving in that direction. |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| Moving in certain directions. Certain things are supposed to act together, for example on agriculture. They are not agreed on foreign policy, that is why we have been taking a different policy on Iraq. |
|
Zoe |
| I didn't understand that. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| Do you think we are right to be closer to the US or not? How do you feel about the current situation? |
|
Natalie |
| Blair is just a puppet – Bush’s puppet. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| Is that a general view? |
|
Louise |
| If we did talk about this they are not going to listen to us because like he said, loads of people are protesting against the War. Do you think they are going to listen to ten kids and he is going to say change it? |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| He has focus groups. |
|
Natalie |
| He was on MTV - a forum with Tony Blair. He was not answering questions at all; he was going around them. He is not listening. |
|
Peter Price |
| It is interesting that you are not feeling strongly associated with the rest of Europe, you're not feeling strongly associated with America. Now does that leave us in a situation where your strongest association is within the UK, or are you as it were just looking at Wales as Wales, and please leave us alone: we are happy just being Welsh? |
|
Natalie |
| They cannot do that because Wales is joining on to England - it is a shame. |
|
Louise |
| We tag along. |
|
Natalie |
| We are if they are going to bomb someone: they can easily bomb us because we are part of the UK. We should be away from them. |
|
Christina |
| Saying the UK is all the Kingdoms together, therefore independence. I want independence but not totally away from the English; I want everybody to come together as one. |
| Lord Richard |
|
You want a federal system as it were? |
|
Christina |
| Like everybody. |
|
Lord Richard |
| Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. All going together? |
|
Christina |
| Working together, but where we get our own opinion and where we say what we want and Northern Ireland says what they want, England says what they want, Scotland says what they want. |
|
Lord Richard |
| The only problem you get is if you say… it is the same with politics saying what you want: somebody does not follow. |
|
Christina |
| That is my personal opinion, I don't know if anybody else might not agree with me. You say you always got what you want by that, it would not be like that. |
|
Lord Richard |
| You get a voice. |
|
Zoe |
| In the UK it seems that when you go to Scotland you get a big welcome when you say you’re Welsh; you go to England and then it is a different story. |
|
Lord Richard |
| Yes. |
|
Zoe |
| That is a bit of it, it is weary; it should not be like that. We are one big UK so it should be together. It is just strange that we have got different areas that are still important but it has been like that for many years hasn't it? |
|
Lord Richard |
| Differences between the parts of the country, that is true, not all very welcoming to each other. That is true. |
|
Zoe |
| It is history isn't it? |
|
Lord Richard |
| The English would say that, in Northern Ireland even, perhaps to some part of it, or some parts of Scotland. What you really want is more Wales within a federal structure as the UK? |
|
Zoe |
| Yes. |
|
Louise |
| We want Wales to speak its own mind. More money. |
|
Natalie |
| More money. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| There are at least two Wales’. South and North. |
|
Lord Richard |
| Why don’t you think Wales and mid-Wales? |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| Let’s go back to that point that I am sure you feel quite relaxed about. I am from South Wales, I love coming to Llandudno and I think it is as lovely as the part of Wales I come from, and every county is different. It is like you go to Spain, you go to Catalonia and it is different from the Basque country or Majorca. Are we making too much of this really because, you know, they are different: we are all part of one nation, so why are we? You know, do you feel this is a real issue or problem, or do you think that maybe we judges should recognise it and say good luck to them. |
|
Natalie |
| It is that everything is down there. That is the only part that I think we have got against it, that people think there is nothing wrong with the barrier because it is not there. But the barrier happens to be there because everything is down in the South. |
|
Christina |
| The barrier between people, not conflicts between people. It is just the fact that the Assembly is all down in South Wales: you have got nothing up North to go to say what you want. I think that is the only problem. |
|
Dr Laura McAllister |
| Do you feel appreciated as well as Welsh? |
|
Carwyn |
| Yes, yes. |
|
Natalie |
| We will have to say yes. It is not on our passport. |
|
Paul Valerio |
| It is how you feel yourself. I always think it is an unfair question – people say your mother or your father. |
|
Zoe |
| It depends doesn't it. If your family background – if you've got someone who comes from England - you are not going to say "I am from Wales" because part of you comes from England. |
|
Carwyn |
| If I go abroad I would say I am from Britain, Wales. Wales. So I prefer to say where exactly I come from. |
|
Dr Laura McAllister |
| If somebody said are you English would you correct them? |
|
Zoe |
| Yes. |
|
Carwyn |
| Yes. |
|
Louise |
| Yes. |
|
Carwyn |
| If they say "do you come from England?" I say, no I come from Britain, Wales. Wales, Britain. |
|
Dr Laura McAllister |
| You mention famous Welsh people that – |
|
Zoe |
| And they say yes. Yes. |
|
Carwyn |
| That is the one thing I do not like about Americans. They refer to Britain as England. I hate that. |
|
Lord Richard |
| Americans make that mistake. |
|
Paul Valerio |
| That is because they have a low education you see. |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| They know nothing about geography anyway. |
|
Lord Richard |
| It has been interesting. I mean I am still not exactly sure what it is you want to do with the Welsh Assembly apart from have an Office in North Wales or make sure that North Wales’ voice is actually heard more strongly. |
|
Christina |
| Carry on the good work; carry on and just improve. |
|
Sacha |
| Maybe get more consultation with young people. |
|
Carwyn |
| With older people as well. Not just young. Not a lot of people know about what the Welsh Assembly does. |
|
Lord Richard |
| It is early days. |
|
Ted Rowlands |
| A huge amount of education is to be done in actually getting across what exactly the Assembly is all about. |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| If you looked at the English Parliament in 1260 you wouldn't have thought very much of it. Four years after the full Parliament it was very shadowy and not known about; some people knew nothing about it. |
|
Zoe |
| I believe we should have a lot more independence because we have waited long enough. We are our own country in a way and we have got a right to have a bit more say in stuff. |
|
Lord Richard |
| I can see that as a basic position, you know, you're Welsh therefore maybe you should be pressing the views of Wales. But you've got to go back to Ted's point. It is very difficult actually to draw up a list for specifically the Welsh you know. |
|
Zoe |
| We have not had a chance to do that yet have we? |
|
Lord Richard |
| Why not? |
|
Christina |
| It has to go through Westminster. |
|
Dr Laura McAllister |
| In some ways that is not the point is it, because, isn't it that you want to be able to decide rather than have different – you might decide to have the same policies as England or as Scotland but you have decided to do it. Is that what you're saying? |
|
Zoe |
| We do have the opportunity; we do feel that appreciated you know. |
|
Christina |
| I think it is not for England to say what goes on in Wales because it is not right. Like Wales is Wales, England is England, but how can England tell us that that is what you are to do, that is what you are not allowed to do? |
|
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth |
| What about the whole point of Devolution? |
|
Paul Valerio |
| In Wales we have got a Children's Commissioner. In Scotland they are debating a Children's Bill. Westminster is going to debate having a Children's Commissioner out there as well. Don't you think that children deserve the best standard of protection irrespective of whether it is Welsh legislation in English or Scottish? There cannot be a difference in the standard of protection that is given to us. Don't you think there are some things that are patently nationalist in Britain as a whole? But when you come to the regions or the nations of Scotland and Northern Ireland, those things that are distinctively Scottish or Welsh should quite validly be dealt with on that basis. But there are a lot of things which can be – in Scotland when we went there they were telling us how many Bills, they used a thing called a ‘Sewel Motion’ which means that they accept that it doesn't make any difference, but it is convenient to let it go through. That is happening rather a lot and would probably happen here if we had primary powers. Don't you think it should be limited to things which really have national identity? |
|
Christina |
| In a way yes, in a way no. |
|
Peter Price |
| Can I ask perhaps maybe, unless someone is about to answer that question, can I take you into the area of where you get your information about the Assembly? You have talked about a lack of information, lack of education, so on. You've had a specific opportunity in the last few weeks to gain information. Okay. Put that on one side, before you started on this intensive programme, where did you get any information that you had about the Assembly? |
|
Zoe |
| The best bet was the Internet wasn't it? |
|
Peter Price |
| The Internet. How many of you had used the Internet to get information about the Assembly before all this began? |
|
Louise |
| I did. |
|
Zoe |
| I did. |
|
Peter Price |
| Right. And for what purposes had you used the Internet? |
|
Zoe |
| I was interested – we were trying to get St David’s Day as the National Holiday, so I was interested in that. I wanted to know what was happening because there was a debate on it, and we could not go down. So I checked the Minutes on the Internet as you can read what happened. |
|
Peter Price |
| What did you use it for? |
|
Louise |
| Well I looked at and when I first went into it just says click on guided tour so it showed a little picture and it would guide you through and it shows where everything is. And it was okay so I know what is expected to come. It is very clear and clean, so it is very nice. |
|
Peter Price |
| That was because you wanted information in general about the Assembly? |
|
Louise |
| No I wanted to see what it looked like then I looked and it said a questionnaire and I thought okay. So I used it. |
|
Peter Price |
| Two of you used the Internet as a source of information. But in terms of the ongoing information, did you have any other sources? How did you find out anything you knew about this Assembly; how did you learn anything prior to that? |
|
Zoe |
| We didn't did we? |
|
Carwyn |
| Like gradually. |
|
Eira Davies |
| Do you use a newspaper at all? You watch the news on – |
|
Carwyn |
| The Times, I used to read newspapers. |
|
Eira Davies |
| Actually reading the newspapers. |
|
Peter Price |
| Let's take those things. First of all, television? How many of you learnt something from time to time about the Assembly from television? |
|
Zoe |
| Not as such, it seems a little bit - a lot of it I cannot remember going on. Yes, they explained some things but sometimes you don't understand their choice of words, what have you, because it was on the television. |
|
Peter Price |
| I am getting that the four of you got some information from television, but two of you are somewhat critical as to how much value it was. Is that about the picture and the others really didn't get information from television as a source? Was that because your television was tuned to North-West rather than Wales? |
|
Zoe |
| Might be. |
|
Louise |
| Yes. Again, it didn't really talk about the Welsh Assembly that much, it is England again. It is England. |
|
Peter Price |
| Are you talking about even if you were tuned to BBC Wales? |
|
Louise |
| Yes it is. |
|
Peter Price |
| Regarding relevance of the information in general, what there is, do you find it too full of jargon, that you could not follow through? Do you listen to the radio, for example, Radio Wales? |
|
Zoe |
| No. |
|
Louise |
| No. |
|
Peter Price |
| Okay. Let’s move to the press. How many of you actually read more or less daily the newspapers? Anybody? |
|
Louise |
| Only the sports, sorry. |
|
Peter Price |
| About half of you read a daily newspaper. Just quickly whip down which newspaper do you read daily. |
|
Jose |
| The Mirror because we read it in school. |
|
Carla |
| In schools I have newspapers everyday so we have the Mail, the Telegraph and the Mail. |
|
Peter Price |
| The Daily Mail, not The Western Mail? And what other newspapers do you people read? |
|
Carwyn |
| The Daily Post and the weekly local paper The Herald. |
|
Peter Price |
| Do either of those carry information about this subject? |
|
Louise |
| The Post did. |
|
Carwyn |
| Yes. |
|
Peter Price |
| It did. |
|
Louise |
| Yes. I saw it once. I was having a change, there were pictures from – |
|
Peter Price |
| Is this fairly rare, this was a feature of that? |
|
Louise |
| I think it was about in the last few weeks. |
|
Zoe |
| I am afraid I am a Sun reader. I am afraid I am a Sun reader, yes. |
|
Christina |
| Express and Daily Post. I find you only get something in The Daily Post about the National Assembly if there is some politician or something from North Wales that has been involved with the National Assembly in Wales. |
|
Peter Price |
| Is that regular news about North-West politicians doing things in the Assembly? |
|
Christina |
| Yes. |
|
Peter Price |
| Quite a lot yes, right? |
|
Sacha |
| I just read our local paper. I cannot be bothered to read the rest. |
|
Eira Davies |
| Do you deliberately read the newspapers or do you seek out the information about the Welsh Assembly? Or is it just as you scan through the paper that you happen to pick out the information? |
|
Zoe |
| Just want it. Just having a look. |
|
Lord Richard |
| My impression I must say, having listened to you is that you want to know about the working of the Assembly but you are irritated, frustrated in the fact that you do not get better information about it. But you want to represent Wales rather more as a national identity. Basically you want those powers within the UK and not as a separate independent identity. Is that a fair? |
|
Zoe |
| Yes I think if Wales did get more say, it might be Wales again that gets more united between us. And the division between North and the South may disappear, who knows? |
|
Lord Richard |
| It should help on that because you know you are in effect forcing people from the North and from the South into the Welsh structure. Thank you very much indeed for coming. |
|
Zoe |
| Thank you for coming. |
|
Lord Richard |
| It has been very useful. I hope it has been useful from your point of view. Good. |
|
|