COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES
 

 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 of the

EVIDENCE OF:

 UCAC

 held at

 The Civic Centre, Merthyr County Borough Council

on 

FRIDAY 27TH JUNE 2003
 

In Attendance 

Edwyn Williams, General Secretary of UCAC

Moelwen Gwyndaf, Secretary of Pensions Pay and Working Conditions UCAC

Lord Richard, Richard Commission

Ted Rowlands, Richard Commission

Tom Jones, Richard Commission

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth, Richard Commission

Paul Valerio, Richard Commission

Dr Laura McAllister, Richard Commission

Peter Price, Richard Commission
 

Proceedings

 Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much for coming and I am sorry there has been this confusion about when you were here, but we are very grateful to you. Can I ask you to identify yourselves and if you will be kind enough to open up the issue?

Edwyn Williams (In Welsh, then interpreted)

Edwyn Williams, and I am the General Secretary of UCAC, and my colleague today is Moelwen Gwyndaf, the Secretary of the Pensions and Pay and Conditions Department of UCAC. Can I thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence today. It is very important. The Commission has an important role in formulating the future of the Assembly and the way in which Wales will be governed in the future. UCAC was established over 60 years ago and one of the aims of UCAC is to formulate an independent education system for Wales and we believe that the inception of the Assembly will make that possible, but unfortunately, because of the powers the Assembly has at the moment there are many ambiguities and fog in terms of the funding issues in particular and we do believe that this is holding back the work of the Assembly. We need to add to the powers of the Assembly to improve in these particular areas and we have some specific examples we can show you of what has happened during the past years since the Assembly was established. But we do firmly believe that the Assembly should have the right and powers to act and that includes legislative powers and tax raising powers. That is important. Now some practical points to show how the work of the Assembly is being stagnated and Moelwen will take you through these points.

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

The first point we have noted in this paper deals specifically with the Teachers' Contract, when back in February 2,000 a higher teachers’ pay scale was introduced and in order to be placed on this pay scale teachers needed to go over a "threshold". There was great confusion during this period, because since the Assembly has the right to decide how some working conditions are implemented in Wales the Assembly believed they would have the right to implement the threshold and therefore to note the criteria for the threshold.

Ted Rowlands

What is your membership?

Edwyn Williams (In Welsh, then interpreted)

We have 4,000 members.

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

The Assembly took this as far as to have a debate in plenary and to actually decide on these criteria. One criterion they did not want to be included in the threshold assessment was the pupils' progress criteria and that was on the principle that someone's performance should be assessed according to their own performance, rather than the performance of other people since there are other influences apart from school on pupils. So that is the principle behind the decision of the Assembly which was very keen to see these criteria applied in Wales. They believed that it would be possible for them to implement this, but what happened was that it became obvious that the Department for Education and Skills was not eager for things to happen differently in Wales and they included the criteria in the primary legislation for teachers' contracts and that meant that the Assembly did not have the right to create any criteria. Because of this confusion the threshold was implemented a year and a half later in Wales than in England and teachers in Wales had to wait a year and a half longer than teachers in England to have their rise in salary.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Was it back paid?

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

Yes, it was.

When it came to implementing the actual assessment, the Assembly did have the right to implement that, so things were different in Wales in terms of assessing teachers for the threshold, but not for actually setting the criteria for this.

Recently, there has been a so-called "Agreement" although according to one of the main civil servants at the Assembly it is not a legal document. The Agreement on Teachers’ Workload has been agreed with the Department for Education and Skills. There were months of discussions on this issue in London and UCAC was a member of the committee in London inputting into this Agreement. Officials from the Assembly were also present but they understood they were there as observers only, so they did not contribute to the discussions. During these meetings discussing aspects of workload, statistics were presented by Civil Servants in London and of course these were statistics for England, despite the fact that the committee was supposed to represent England and Wales, but the decisions made were based on figures and research undertaken in England and therefore the Assembly was under the impression that, when it came to implementing any changes, the Assembly would be able to make decisions for Wales. But, when it was time to actually sign the Agreement, the Assembly was told that they had to sign this document, so they had been more than observers. When they realised that they had to agree to all the implications involved in the Agreement, they urgently drew up 29 amendments, a number of which included changes in the phrasing or the wording referring to the Government of England and Wales rather than just the Government, but many other amendments were more fundamental, but these were not accepted, apart from one amendment. There is, therefore, one paragraph that notes that the Assembly has the right to implement the document in Wales. Therefore the Assembly does have some rights, but in subsequent meetings it has become apparent that, if the Assembly would want to operate differently in Wales, it would be possible they would not be able to do so without the agreement of those in England who have signed the document. I hope this is clear, because it is quite a complex issue. But even the Civil Servants who are responsible for this are not quite sure what would happen if the Assembly wished ....

Ted Rowlands

The Welsh Assembly officials sat there in blissful ignorance they would be jointly responsible for the outcome of the discussions?

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

Yes. They acted as observers because during this period the Department for Education had been discussing tasks which they felt teachers should not be doing, mainly bureaucratic tasks and they had decided that these would be tasks that other people would be able to carry out and it would be noted in teachers’ contracts that teachers would not have to undertake these tasks. The Education Minister in England sent this information out to schools in England, but refused to do so in Wales despite the fact that the Department for Education in England is responsible for working conditions. This was part of the working conditions and we felt it was the Minister in London who should have sent it out to teachers in England and in Wales. By September this year schools will have to implement this change in contract. Schools in England have had time to prepare for this whilst Welsh schools have not had this opportunity, and head teachers are now facing changes in teachers’ contracts in September without having had the opportunity to prepare in the same way as headteachers at schools in England.

Huw Thomas (In Welsh, then interpreted)

I am sorry for interrupting. When did the official or officials from the Assembly actually -- when they were going to the meeting they had not realised that this would…

Edwyn Williams (In Welsh, then interpreted)

As Moelwen said, they told us that they believed they were there as observers and it was only in the penultimate meeting they realised they would actually have to sign this document so it would be enforced in Wales as well, and Estelle Morris, the Secretary of State for Education at the time, had sent a pamphlet out to every teacher and school in England stating these changes, but they said it was not their rule to do this in Wales despite the fact they are responsible for working conditions in Wales and England.

Ted Rowlands

There was a representative body representing teachers in Wales who understood they had to have an Assembly official sitting alongside who believed they were not involved?

Edwyn Williams

Yes.

Lord Richard

Did you sign?

Edwyn Williams

We refused to sign on principle. One of the principles was to do with classroom assistants but because of lack of clarity for the funding in Wales….

Lord Richard

Anyone else refused to sign?

Edwyn Williams

The NUT.

Ted Rowlands

Nationally or Welsh?

Edwyn Williams

It was the English NUT.

Ted Rowlands

You had no doubts you were involved in direct negotiations and that this Agreement ....

Paul Valerio

It sounds to me there was a lack of understanding of what the situation was. Very often we have heard people say there is a lot of lack of clarity, and once or twice and perhaps a third time now I think it is a lack of understanding.

Lord Richard

Does the NUT share that view?

Edwyn Williams

I do not know.

(In Welsh, then interpreted)

There is a lack of understanding, but it is because the Assembly can operate on some issues. They were under the impression they could do things differently in Wales, and what we are saying is, because of this lack of clarity, certainly the Assembly should have all the powers for education including working conditions and teachers' pay. That would be clearer, and then, if the Assembly actually wants to implement something in Wales, (it is already responsible for qualifications and so on), if they wanted to do something differently, they would not have to go to London and ask if they can. In order to be clear and fair the situation should be changed.

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

Confusion arises from the Agreement and one reason we did not agree with this was the role of classroom assistants. The Agreement states clearly that classroom assistants have the right to teach lessons and, as we understand, during all these discussions the Assembly did not agree with this principle at all, and they told us during this period that things would be different in Wales, but now they have signed this Agreement that notes that classroom assistants can actually take lessons. So once again it is obvious that they thought they would be able to operate differently, but whether they will we do not know. At the same time they tell us that this is not a legal document and the Parliament in England will have to pass any changes, but this document has been signed, and I think it is an example of the ambiguity in the education field. The question, which we ask in this paper, is what would have happened had the Government of the Assembly refused to sign this document? This could have happened had the Assembly been controlled by a different party to that in control in Westminster. Now as things are, it was not likely to happen even though there was disagreement. What would have happened in such a scenario? That would have meant that the Assembly could have operated differently and be treated in the same way as they have treated UCAC and NUT. Would they have excluded us all from discussions on the implementation of this document meaning that the Assembly itself would not have had any input into the document on conditions of service of teachers? I think that's an interesting scenario.

Tom Jones (In Welsh, then interpreted)

What is the situation from September onwards as you have not signed the document.

Edwyn Williams

There will be changes to the contracts of our members, so they are accepting those changes, yes, they have.

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

And we do welcome the changes, but the reason we did not sign was because of the means of implementing, namely using classroom assistants instead of teachers. In the Agreement it notes that every teacher must have 10 per cent of non-contact time during the working week but that is in the Contract, but in the means of implementation schools have the right to use classroom assistants during that period, but teachers have to be responsible for the preparation and marking of all the work. Now our argument is that that does not give 10 per cent of non-contact time to teachers. So this is where the Agreement exists in the actual implementation. We welcome the changes to the Contract.

Lord Richard

I was going to broaden the issue and ask you how you find dealing with the Assembly. What is your experience in dealing with the Assembly itself as opposed to this particular issue?

Edwyn Williams (In Welsh, then interpreted)

There has been a very good relationship between the Assembly and UCAC with the Civil Servants and Ministers, but the problem that arises is similar to the problems noted here. Very frequently when we say we want things to be different in Wales there is ambiguity. They are not sure whether they have the right to operate differently or not. We know they have rights in term of curriculum and qualifications, but when it comes to other matters that is where the problem lies. There is hindrance in this relationship, otherwise it is a very healthy relationship and we can access the members quite easily, but no one is quite sure what their rights are.

Lord Richard

Can you give us some specific examples of where you ask the Assembly and you are not sure whether they can deal with you?

Edwyn Williams

We have a recent example.

(In Welsh, then interpreted)

For example, we mentioned the "threshold". That is a specific example, where the Assembly Members believed they had the right to do things differently but they did not actually have this right. They wanted to change the Performance Management Framework slightly as well for teachers. They do have the right to implement that and that is actually done differently, but once again that was implemented a year late in Wales for the same reasons that happened with the threshold. Moelwen mentioned conditions of service. We go to London to the Teachers’ Pay Review Body and we present evidence and they see the problems that exist and they are aware of the problems but very often they are not aware of what happens in Wales until UCAC points this out to them.

Ted Rowlands

We are interested because, in fact, most of the sector representatives of unions have tended to support the principle they want to maintain a kind of UK pensions, basic conditions of service. They are not certain whether, if it breaks up, in fact in the end there might be a possibility that we would devolve. We are interested you are very strongly in favour of total devolution. You would not be party to the Teachers’ Pay Review Body in England. You would have a Welsh Pay Body, which would be totally separate and, except somewhere down the line, your conditions and pay and pensions might vary adversely to some teachers elsewhere. You would accept that is a logical possibility?

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

They could be quite a bit better. They are better in Scotland so we must not assume that things would be much worse in Wales. That was the argument against devolution was it not?

Ted Rowlands

You will take the chance?

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

We are definite. We think that giving the Assembly full powers would mean that Wales would be able to control the conditions of service. There is talk in the Press about local pay bargaining and so on. We do not want to break Wales up. We want to ensure that in Wales the Assembly will be able to act on this with the full powers to do it, in the hope that the Assembly will ensure they give the Public Sector workers a very high status. We feel that at present the Assembly cannot look at the full picture, at education holistically from the point of view of looking at what is best for the pupils of Wales. They are restricted because they do not have control over the conditions of service of the people who are actually delivering this education.

Dr Laura McAllister

Ted has asked the question, but to take it a stage further if I may. When the Minister for Education came before the Commission in October last year, I asked her whether there were any areas of the education brief that were not currently devolved and that she might wish to be devolved, and I raised two questions, the big areas, teachers' pay and conditions, and student support. It looks as if student support may be on its way, or parts of students' support may be on its way, but teachers’ pay is still not an issue that is left for discussion. She also suggested to me, if you look back at the evidence, no-one was arguing for teachers' pay to be devolved other than those who favoured independence or separatism. Whatever the reasons for her saying that, I wonder if you could make a stronger case. You started to do so there and when you have drawn the comparisons with Scotland. I wonder if you could make a stronger case that cuts across what the Minister made which deals with the popular view in the teacher profession.

Edwyn Williams (In Welsh, then interpreted)

For 60 years our aim has been an independent education system in Wales, but we have also told the Teachers' Pay Review Body in our response that we feel we need to bring the conditions of service and salaries of teachers to the Assembly so they can look at the full picture to ensure the education of our pupils. Whatever the Assembly decided, they could also determine the conditions of service and salaries of the people delivering that education. That is very important. Scotland has gone down the Charter Teacher Status from the point of view of how their working hours are worked out. It would give us an opportunity in Wales to decide on what kind of education system we want, and how we would prioritise it. We would very much hope the conditions of service of Welsh teachers would improve in a way that is relevant to what is happening in Wales.

Tom Jones (In Welsh, then interpreted)

On the final page of your presentation, back in the fog as you described it, or in the haze, you mention the Chancellor in London announcing two schemes and we are never sure where the money lies, whether it follows through to Wales. Do you have any particular examples?

Edwyn Williams (In Welsh, then interpreted)

I was talking about a recent conditions of service agreement on raising standards. There is an appendix to it that states how much money is given for the implementation of this in England and we are talking about huge sums of money there. All we know in Wales at the moment is that £21 million is being given over a period of 3 years - £3 million this year, £3million the following year and another £15million the following in order to reduce the workload. That is an example of us not knowing what happens to the additional funding. But when the Chancellor or the Minister for Education for England and Wales makes comments about specialist schools, it is something that the Assembly is not doing. They are sticking to the comprehensive system. We do not know whether that money will be coming to the Assembly, whether it is going to come afterwards to education. It is up to the Assembly to decide what is going to happen to it. The standards fund in England that is discussing education allocates various funding. There is no such similar body in Wales. A number of these initiatives are announced in England where additional funding is given, but we never know whether that funding will be coming to the Assembly, whether or not it is allocated into the field of education.

Peter Price

About the ability of going to pay and conditions discussions, this is something which is a separate body but receives evidence from the Department of Education on the one hand and teachers unions on the other essentially. That gives a key of how it works. Those resources would need to be duplicated at a Welsh level. Can you give some idea of the size of the resources involved and what the Assembly would be involved in at the Welsh level?

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

The Review Body has approximately 15 members, I believe. They meet annually and look at or take evidence from 25 bodies in all and then they publish a report the following January, but also over the past years they have been looking at a number of additional issues as the Minister for Education have asked them to look at, workload being one of them. So, additional meetings have been held and once again they have had to consult with the 25 organisations all if which have an opportunity to give oral evidence similar to what we are doing here today. That is the procedure.

Peter Price

The members of the Review Body you say are 15 people and they are absorbed for a month of the year perhaps doing that work?

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

More than that. They have their own secretariat as well working for them. I am not sure how many staff in all, but they do have staff and I would say it is more than a month per year; I would say it is probably two or three months.

Peter Price

Then you have got the permanent officials in the Department dealing with this and a lot of the evidence will be given by the UK units.

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

Yes.

Peter Price

If this were to be repeated at a Welsh level would there be any cutting out of evidence, or would all that evidence need to be heard, because most of it relates to the nature of inflation, the impact on teachers, a lot of it would be repetitious, would it not. How much could be saved? Would it mean in effect much the same operation in Wales? It is not just the Review Body? You have also got on top of that the cost of the Department.

Ted Rowlands

The cost of devolving.

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

I do not have the costs. We do not know.

Edwyn Williams (In Welsh, then interpreted)

It would be important that, if the pay and conditions of teachers came over to the Assembly, it would be important to have a Review Body and it would be a matter for that Body to decide how it implemented its procedures, but it would be very important we could hear the views of everyone involved in Wales.

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

We are not eager for salaries to be devolved to the Assembly until the Assembly has the power to raise taxes, because at present we do not feel that Wales and the Assembly are all ready to be in charge of the salaries, but once the Assembly had greater powers, tax-raising powers, then the evidence being presented in Wales would be different to that presented in England, because it would be an England only situation there and the situation would be different here in Wales. It would not just be a matter of re-inventing or repeating what has been done in England.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Tax varying, not tax raising. The second point is would not the grant of tax varying powers require a referendum?

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

Our members have not discussed that, to be honest. It would be only a personal opinion we could give you, if you want a personal view.

Paul Valerio

You have asked for tax varying powers. If your members wanted a lower tax base, would that be making better conditions for teachers?

Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much for coming. You've made your point very clearly both in the paper and in the evidence.

Ted Rowlands

You represent 4,000. What is the total? Any idea what the Welsh national teachers’ population is?

Moelwen Gwyndaf (In Welsh, then interpreted)

2,000 schools.

Ted Rowlands

What proportion of the profession do you represent?

Edwyn Williams

I think it is 26,000. I am not sure. Then there will be supply teachers on top of that. All our members are Welsh-speaking teachers as well as some being in the Welsh-medium sector.