COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

EVIDENCE OF:

Mr Gareth Jones

held at

Caradog House, Cardiff

On

FRIDAY 11 JULY 2003

In Attendance

Lord Richard

Eira Davies

Vivienne Sugar

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Tom Jones

Huw Thomas

Ted Rowlands

Dr Laura McAllister

Peter Price

Carys Evans, Secretary to the Commission

Gareth Jones

Proceedings

Lord Richard

Thank you for coming. Could you identify yourself?

Gareth Jones (In Welsh then interpreted)

Hoffwn ddiolch i chi am y cyfle i ddod ger eich bron ond dan amgylchiadau gwahanol y tro hwn, yn anffodus. Rhaid i i ddweud fy mod wedi dod dros fy siom, ond rwyf yn croesawu’r cyfle i ddweud ychydig eiriau, neu i gyflwyno rhai o’m syniadau, oherwydd erbyn hyn dydw i ddim yn ceisio’ch seboni o gwbl pan ddywedaf eich bod chi a’r gwaith rydych yn ymwneud ag ef yn eithriadol o bwysig cyn belled ag y mae’r Cynulliad yn y cwestiwn, ond cyn belled ag y mae Cymru yn y cwestiwn hefyd, os caf ddweud.

Interpretation:

I would like to thank you for the opportunity to come before you but under different circumstances this time unfortunately. I must say that I have overcome my disappointment but I do welcome the opportunity to say a little bit, or to present some of my ideas because by now I am not trying to soft soap you at all when I do tell you that you the work you are involved with is exceptionally important as far as the Assembly is concerned but also as far as Wales is concerned also, if I may say so.

Lord Richard

Very kind. Please.

Gareth Jones (In Welsh then interpreted)

Rydw i yma, wrth gwrs, yn sgil y canlyniad sy’n ganlyniad trist o safbwynt y niferoedd a bleidleisiodd, sef 38 y cant. Mae cael y ffigurau diweddaraf am bobl ifanc mai 16 y cant yn unig o bobl 18 i 25 oed a aeth i’r drafferth i bleidleisio yn peri tristwch mawr. Ac i ryw raddau hefyd mae’n golygu efallai nad yw’r Cynulliad fel sefydliad, beth bynnag fynnwch chi ei alw, yn apelio, neu efallai nad yw gwleidyddiaeth yn apelio, ond mae yna neges bwysig yma. Hoffwn ddweud, felly, fod yr ychydig sylwadau sydd gennyf yn seiliedig ar y negesau a gefais wrth ganfasio o ddrws i ddrws. Rhaid i mi ddweud wrthych fod yna deimladau cryf iawn. Hoffwn ddweud yn garedig nad yw’r Cynulliad yn boblogaidd cyn belled ag y mae pobl Conwy yn y cwestiwn, ac o bosibl yn gyffredinol ar draws Gogledd Cymru. Ond rwyf yn cyfeirio’n benodol at Gonwy a’m profiad i fy hun. Rhaid edrych ar hynny oherwydd mae hynny, byddwn yn tybied, yn fater o ofid nid yn unig i Blaid Cymru oherwydd dyna dy safbwynt i. Gwn eich bod yn caniatáu am hynny, ond mae’n fater o bwys ac o ofid i bob plaid, a byddwn yn dweud bod neges groes mewn gwirionedd yn y ffaith mai’r unig blaid a welodd unrhyw fath o gynnydd oedd y Ceidwadwyr. Maen nhw’n gwrthwynebu’r Cynulliad. Rwy’n sicr bod hynny’n annheg o safbwynt eu polisïau, ond mae rhyw elfen lle nad ydyn yn credu bod Ceidwadwyr yn wirioneddol o blaid y Cynulliad. Felly, roedd cynnydd bach yn eu ffigurau pleidleisio neu roeddent heb gael llawer iawn mwy o bleidleisiau na Phlaid Cymru, felly, rhaid i ni edrych o ddifrif ar y rheswm dros yr agwedd hon, sef casineb bron tuag at y Cynulliad. Pam mae hyn y bod. Gallwn roi ychydig enghreifftiau i chi. Wrth i mi fynd o ddrws i ddrws, mae pobl yn gofyn: pam mae’r dreth gyngor wedi cynyddu cymaint a pham mae fy mhensiwn wedi sefyll bron yn ei unfan? Byddwch yn dweud wrthyn nhw’n onest nad yw hynny’n rhan o ‘ngwaith i na’r Cynulliad. Wedyn maen nhw’n dweud: peidiwch â gwastraffu fy amser, felly, gan eich bod mewn sefyllfa lle rydych yn y canol rhwng Llywodraeth Leol a San Steffan. Pa fath o reolaeth, o rym sydd gennych? Pa fath o awdurdod sydd gennych i gyfleu negesau i’r rheiny sy’n bresennol, y rheiny sydd â diddordeb? Ar ôl astudio neu geisio astudio, ac rwy’n derbyn bod yna arbenigwyr sy’n gwybod mwy na fi am hyn, y neges yr hoffwn ei chyfleu yw nad ydyn ni’n ceisio cael grym llwyr i’r Cynulliad nawr. Fe wn mai dyna yw polisi Plaid Cymru, ond ar y cyfan dylem fod yn ceisio perffeithio neu hwyrach yn cwblhau’n iawn y pwerau sydd eisoes wedi eu datganoli. Cyfeiriais eisoes at fyd addysg, er enghraifft, os cymerwch y meysydd sydd wedi eu datganoli, ydyn ni’n datganoli’r hawl i weinyddu neu’r hawl i lywodraethu? Oherwydd os datganolwch y weinyddiaeth, mae hynny’n golygu cost Er enghraifft, mae’r Awdurdodau Tân, y tri ohonynt sy’n gyfrifol am weinyddu’r Awdurdod Tân, i gael eu datganoli i Gymru. Ond ni fydd rheolaeth dros gyflogau na’r amodau gwasanaeth. Felly, ni fydd trosglwyddo pwer cyn belled ag y gwelaf fi. Gallwch hwyluso materion. Ie, byddai hynny’n beth da. Wedyn gallwch ddweud, wel, mae hwn dan ryw fath o reolaeth Gymreig, ond nid datganoli gwirioneddol yw hynny. Gall greu problemau yn yr un ffordd gydag addysg, fel roeddwn i’n ceisio’i egluro, gallwch ofyn i athrawon wneud hyn neu’r llall, gwella’r perfformiad a sicrhau gwell canlyniadau. Gweithio’n galetach, ond fedrwn ni ddim gosod lefel y cyflogau i’n hathrawon. Yn yr un ffordd hefyd ddatblygiad economaidd. Gallwch wneud hynny. Ond pob math o bethau rydych am gael rheolaeth drostynt, sef cael pwer dros yswiriant gwladol, mae hwnnw’n cael ei ganoli. Wedyn fedrwch chi ddim rhyddhau cyfalaf i’r unigolion hynny ac i bobl fusnes i ddatblygu’r economi. Yn yr un modd, gallwn ddatblygu cysylltiadau cludiant. Gallwn, wrth gwrs, gallwn wneud hynny, ond ni allwch gael unrhyw ddatblygiad cyn belled ag y mae’r rheilffyrdd yn y cwestiwn. Y rheilffyrdd. Does dim synnwyr o gwbl yn y peth fel y mae. Roeddwn wedi cael yr argraff, a hwyrach mai hwn fydd y pwynt olaf yr hoffwn ei gyflwyno, fod hwn yn ddigwyddiad, ie, ond hefyd yn broses. Ond does dim proses hyd y gwelaf fi. Mae hyd yn oed Aelodau Seneddol yn y Gogledd nawr wedi dweud: "peidiwch â sôn am roi mwy o bwerau i’r Cynulliad. Mae eisoes yn amhoblogaidd, a phe baech yn gofyn am ragor o bwerau yna byddai pobl yn dweud: does arnon ni mo’i eisiau o gwbl". Dyna’r neges gyhoeddus sydd wedi ei chyfleu. Dyna sut rydw i’n gweld pethau yn y Gogledd, o leiaf. Felly, yn yr holl elfen honno yn y broses dydyn ni’n gwneud dim ond troi yn ein hunfan, dydw i ddim yn gweld ein bod yn symud ymlaen. Dyna pam rydw i’n dweud bod rhaid i’r Comisiwn hwn, ac rwy’n gofyn i chi’n garedig, rhaid i chi ystyried yn ofalus iawn, iawn cyn belled ag y mae eich argymhellion yn y cwestiwn os argymhellwch y dylai pethau aros fel maen nhw. Cyn belled ag y mae Plaid Cymru yn y cwestiwn, rwy’n gweld y dyfodol yn ddu iawn, iawn a hwyrach y byddai pobl yn dweud: popeth yn iawn, rydyn ni’n croesawu hynny. Ond y ffaith yw fod y Cynulliad hwn yn gyflym iawn yn mynd yn amhoblogaidd. Os bydd pethau’n parhau fel maen nhw, fe aiff o ddrwg i waeth. Un o wendidau sylfaenol yr holl beth yw ein bod wedi cael y setliad 50/50 yma. Rydych wedi rhoi â’r naill law ac wedi cadw â’r llall. Er y gallech ddweud ein bod wedi cael ein tocynnau bws i’r henoed. Cawsom wared â’r TASAU i blant 7 oed. Byddwn i’n gofyn a oedd arnom angen Cynulliad i wneud y pethau hynny? Felly, o ran gwaith y Comisiwn, rwy’n gobeithio’n fawr iawn y bydd argymhellion a fydd yn symud efallai nid i bwer llwyr - hwyrach y byddai hynny’n ormod i’w ddisgwyl - ond tuag at gwblhau’r graddau hynny o drosglwyddo pwerau sydd eisoes wedi cychwyn. Hoffwn weld hynny’n cael ei berffeithio. Dyna fy neges. Rydw i’n ddiolchgar iawn am gael ei chyflwyno i chi.

Interpretation:

I am here, of course, following the result which is quite a sad result from the point of view of the numbers that voted, namely 38 per cent out turn. In getting the most recent figures on young people that only 16 per cent between the ages of 18 to 25 actually bothered to vote. That's a matter of great sadness. Also to some extent it means that perhaps the Assembly as an institution, whatever you wish to call it, does not appeal, or perhaps politics does not appeal but there is an important message there. May I say therefore that the few comments that I have to make are based on the messages that I received as I was canvassing from door to door. I must tell you that there are very strong feelings. May I say it kindly that the Assembly is not popular as far as the people of Conwy are concerned and possibly generally throughout the whole of North Wales. But I am referring specifically to Conwy and my own experience. One has to look at that because that, I would imagine, is of concern not only to Plaid Cymru because that is the stance that I am taking and I know that you make allowances for that, but it is of importance and concern to every party I would say and there is a contrary message really in the fact that the only party who made any kind of progress were the Conservatives. They are anti-Assembly. I am sure that's unfair from the point of view of their policies but there is some element where we think Conservatives are not truly in favour of the Assembly, so there was a slight increase in their polling figures or they did gain many more votes than Plaid Cymru, so we must look seriously at why this attitude, this almost hatred towards the Assembly. Why it exists. I could give you some examples. As one goes from door to door people are asking: why has the council tax increased so much and why has my pension remained almost static? You try to tell them to be honest that's nothing to do with me or the Assembly. They then say: don't waste my time then because you're in a position where you are between Local Government and Westminster. What kind of control, power do you have? What kind of authority do you have to give those present those messages to those who are interested? Having studied or attempted to study, and I accept that there are experts that know more than I do about this, the message that I would wish to convey is that we're not seeking absolute power for the Assembly now, I know that that is the Plaid Cymru policy, but all in all we should be looking for perfecting or perhaps completing right the powers that have already been devolved. I did refer previously in the world of education, for example, if you take the devolved areas, are we devolving the right to administration or the right to govern? Because you devolve the administration then there is a cost attached. For example, recently the Fire Authorities, the three of them, the responsibility for the administration of the Fire Authorities is going to be devolved to Wales. But there won't be any control over the salaries or the conditions of service. So there is no transfer of power there as far as I can see. You can facilitate issues. Yes, that's would be good. Then you say can say, well, this is under some kind of Welsh control but it's not true devolution. It can create problems in the same manner with education, as I was trying to say, you can ask your teachers to do this or that, improve the performance and ensure better results. Work harder but we can't set the level of salaries for our teachers. In the same manner economic development. You can do that. But all kinds of things that you want to have control over, namely take powers over national insurance, that's centralised, you cannot then release capital to those individuals and to business people to develop the economy. In the same manner we can develop transport links, yes, of course you can do that, but you cannot have any development as far as the rail roads are concerned. The railways. It doesn't make any sense at all as it stands. I was under the impression, perhaps this is the final point I would wish to present, that this was an event, yes, but also a process. But there is no process as far as I can see it. Even Members of Parliament in the North now have said: "don't mention giving the Assembly more powers. It's already unpopular and if you were to ask for more powers then people would say: we don't want it at all". That's the public message that has been issued. That's how I read it anyway in the North. So that whole element of the process I think we're just treading water really, I don't see us moving forward. That's why I said that this Commission, and I am asking you kindly, you have to consider very, very carefully as far as your recommendations are concerned if you recommend that things remain as they stand. As far as Plaid Cymru is concerned I see a very, very bleak future and perhaps people would say: fine, we welcome that. But the fact it that this Assembly is swiftly becoming unpopular. If things remain as they are it will go from bad to worse. One of the fundamental weaknesses in the whole thing is that we have been given this 50/50 settlement. You have given with one hand and retained with the other hand. Although you could say we have got bus passes. We've got rid of SATS for 7 years olds. I would ask did we need an Assembly to accomplish those things? So as regards the work of the Commission I very much hope that there will be recommendations that will move perhaps not to absolute power. Perhaps that is too much to expect. But towards completing that decree of the transfer of powers that has already begun. I would like to see that being perfected. That's my message. I am very grateful to present that to you.

Lord Richard

Can I see whether I understand your position. You're not in favour in what you call absolute powers being devolved?

Gareth Jones

I would be personally.

Lord Richard

Realistically you don't think that's possible?

Gareth Jones

Because the current situation there is an equation out there and the equation is as follows: the National Assembly because of whatever decisions made, or however it's been presented through the Media is unpopular, therefore, the notion of self government is unpopular, therefore Plaid Cymru is unpopular. That's how I see that particular equation. I would wish to see the Assembly working effectively and the way to do that is not to give these half hearted powers, but to give the power, if we are develop the economy, to develop education, give us the right to do so. That means there should be absolute power in that area. Whichever area you---

Lord Richard

Some would say that quite a lot of the power in education has been devolved.

Gareth Jones

Not the real issue. I mean there is a carrot and stick. The real issue if you want your teachers to work harder, deliver better performance, so then you need to be able to engage in some kind of reward. You haven't got that reward. You haven't got power over the pay. Because when we had a look at the bureaucracy in teaching we had to wait for what the outcome was from Westminster because that is where that power remains.

Vivienne Sugar

Many of the unions do not want to see a separation of pay and conditions being devolved because the are afraid their Members would be paid less in Wales than they currently are.

Gareth Jones

That's a very good point but of course we are heading for that anyway. In a recent statement by the Chancellor he said that he was looking towards regionalisation of pay in the public sector, so that will happen any way.

Vivienne Sugar

I think you are mis-quoting. There will be a national framework for pay but there will be some regional flexibility.

Gareth Jones

We are made out to be a poor region or country. I can only surmise what that will entail. I can guarantee you that we will be top of any particular league if it comes to pay in the public sector.

Peter Price

The impression that you give when you talk about rewards for teachers, for example, but you also referred to other public sector pay conditions as well, that you would want to award by paying overall more than their English counterparts.

Gareth Jones

I would wish to pay what is a fair wage.

Peter Price

But if the fair wage is in total a higher wage bill what are the implications in terms of total expenditure in Wales?

Gareth Jones

Obviously you take from one you give to the other. We're dealing with a block, I understand that fully, but all I am saying is even if you wish to do that we haven't got the power and certainly the first thing they did in Scotland was to give 23 per cent as an incentive. Not that I want would want to do that. I am saying you haven't got the power to do it if you really wanted to.

Dr Laura McAllister

The issue is also determining the criteria within the threshold requirements which is where the tension came originally. Is that as importance and having the power to vary pay?

Gareth Jones

Indeed that is a good point. There is some variation within the system any way. I feel the threshold as it turned out to be in Wales was not so much a threshold but just to put things in the teaching profession because, what was it, 98 per cent success rate in terms of application for the threshold pay increase?

Ted Rowlands

In your initial remarks you mentioned the conversations you had with constituents who said why is the council tax going up and pensions staying static. I thought in fact that the National Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Government had the power to determine the council tax?

Gareth Jones

They do.

Ted Rowlands

So that bit of it. Now are you suggesting that pensions should be devolved?

Gareth Jones

Oh no. What I am saying is that we were asked as a Assembly, the prospective Members: why is council tax increasing at this alarming rate? The answer of course is that, well, we're not being given enough transfer of monies from the Chancellor so that we can keep them at a low rate. You can't say that because at the end of the day we get the money into Wales of the £10b. We've got to make do with that. It's very difficult to answer that particular question because it relates to Local Government and it varies, as we know, from authority to authority.

Ted Rowlands

Considerable influence or power over the degree of change in operation at that level does it?

Gareth Jones

Yes, all I am saying is that that's the kind of situation an Assembly Member will find himself in. I don't think we are actually controlling, we can't control pensions, we can't control council tax. But as far as the people out there are concerned that's -- they don't divide things up to into, oh, that's Conwy Council, that's the Assembly, that's Westminster. They see themselves as individual. I think we've got to be very careful in terms of how we perceive and present the Assembly. If it's to be identified as a compartment of some kind or something that does not actually help the individual, I can see very much a bleak time ahead. That's just an example, it's not my request, I am sharing that with you as a dilemma for the individuals.

Ted Rowlands

You would support the principle that tax varying powers will have to go with any responsibilities?

Gareth Jones

Definitely, yes.

Lord Richard

Can I come back to absolute power. You seem to draw the distinction between what you call absolute powers and powers that are necessary to fulfill the mandate that has already been given which in your view is a deficient one. Is that fair? Is that your approach?

Gareth Jones

I would say at this stage that I have to put on the back burner, this increase in power absolute.

Lord Richard

You mean primary legislation?

Gareth Jones

If we had a referendum for primary legislation we would find great difficulty in getting that through simply because the current settlement is not the satisfactory one. I tried to explain what I feel should be done is to extend the delegated powers, you mentioned education, I would say it's not fully devolved. There are other examples, as I mentioned with the fire authority, in that instance we have had the opportunity, or will have the opportunity to manage them and who's going to pay for that? Are we supposed to be grateful for that kind of transfer? If so, why? Because obviously if there is an increase in management charges, or whatever, that has to come from the block grant which we won't get anything extra to cater for what has been transferred to us. I am not quite sure, although as a Plaid Cymru Member I would say we welcome that because it's an all Wales fire authority, great. But if that is at the expense of less for services, for the elderly, or whoever, you have got to question it. We have to be fair and open with people out there.

Lord Richard

So it's filling in the gaps as you see it?

Gareth Jones

I would see that definitely as a positive way forward. I have heard so many saying: improve what we have got. In doing that I am being honest with you, at the end of the day I would wish to see far greater powers for the Assembly. I want that to be registered. But unless we get that, and if we don't see that as a target, if we continue the way we are I wouldn't like to be canvassing in four years time. Even at this stage I can tell you now it's unpopular. I don't know how it's going to be in four years time unless it comes back to you and the very important work that you are undertaking.

Lord Richard

We won't make it popular. We can do all sorts of things. Popular, that's beyond us!

Vivienne Sugar

I see some contradictions in your argument, though. It was perfectly possible for the Welsh Assembly to keep the council tax down within the Welsh block if it had made decisions about moving money from other areas. So if the credibility of the Assembly depended on council tax you could have voted to do that. We have the problem that the amount of tax raised in Wales is not sufficient to pay for what we currently deliver through public services. So your argument seems to be that we want more powers but only if Gordon Brown gives us money to do it with.

Gareth Jones

That is the basis of a political argument which I could engage with for some time. We have only been given ten billion pounds. The rest of the money is being held centrally. The Plaid Cymru approach would be give us the opportunity to raise taxes to create our own Government within Wales, or are we to impoverish the nation? Are you saying we can't afford this? The question is nobody can actually say whether we can afford it or not. I accept the point you are making about the tax raising capacity in Wales, but, for example, we have had nothing spent on railways and the development of railways. That does not enter into balance sheet. We've got one per cent of the 20 billion pounds spent on defence, I believe, spent in Wales. Not six per cent as we should be getting from the Barnett allocation. So there are many, many aspects and---

Vivienne Sugar

You would want to go further than the Scottish settlement then, to include defence and so on?

Gareth Jones

We would need to look at it, before we say that Wales hasn't got the tax raising capacity I want to look at full implications of the financial balance sheet before I would say, look, we can afford it. At the moment nobody knows whether we can afford fuller powers or not.

Huw Thomas

You mention the fact that this is a reaction you are getting in North Wales. To what extent would you say that the Assembly contributed to it themselves? If there were things which with the benefit of hindsight you would now look back and say: as an Assembly we should have done this.

Gareth Jones

Could I give you then a prime example where I may be out of line with my own party. Had I been there this time I would have voted against this new building. Quite frankly I will tell you the way I tried to present my knowledge and experience I have had, we're building a light house and we're not installing the lighting system. That's what we have got. New building. Great new building. People will come to look at it. That's great. But there is no power there. It's not doing what it should be doing. In fact that £55 million is going to come direct from the services. That's a fact. I will say you read, I am sure you do, but the following day there was an editorial in the Daily Post and that is the paper that's is widely read in North Wales. It was scathing. If you want to understand why the Assembly is unpopular well then you should look at that editorial where it referred to a Assembly Members being less than bright and all the rest of it. Nonsense. But that's the way it's presented. When you have -- even today we've got this the ridiculous situation or it appears to be ridiculous in terms of where the Members actually sit in the Assembly. So people are not daft. They read. They hear these things. If that's what you are doing, forget it. If that's your self Government, and this is my point, if that's the self Government forget it and forget Plaid Cymru, that's why I am particularly annoyed about the current situation which, yes, you could say, admittedly, I was there. I have to accept part of that responsibility. I'm not disputing that. But having had this sort of change over circumstances, I'm not bitter at all, believe you me, I'm disappointed, but I have overcome that, but I am seeking to present to you what I feel are my genuine concerns. Something has to change because this unpopularity will simply continue on its way. It will be fed by newspapers and so on, who are no friends of devolution in that sense, I don't want the north south divide personally, I think in terms of Wales as a nation. We have made some very silly decisions that are presented in a bad light.

Lord Richard

Your scathing editorial points, the seating, has nothing to do with the powers of the Assembly, it's the way the Assembly conducts itself.

Gareth Jones

I would have to accept that. I mean, the decision with the building, for example, is open to various comments and criticisms. I can't disagree. That why I said, had I been there I would not have voted.

Lord Richard

Can I change the subject totally. You were an AM. One of the things we're looking at is whether you need more AMs. To do that we've got to get some idea of the workload that the existing AMs actually carry. How many days a week did you spend?

Gareth Jones

It is hard work. In terms of as a constituency AM. Also I would ask you to consider a very real issue is that at least a day is spent travelling, isn't it? It's half a day down to Cardiff. Not in the best of circumstances as far as---

Lord Richard

Would you travel down on Monday morning?

Gareth Jones

Monday, you would need to do some constituency work certainly in the office, or somehow or other, there would be meetings of some kind. You would then, if you were lucky, catch a quarter to four from Llandudno, be here about 9 o'clock. Then you'd have Tuesday, Wednesday and as the Committees were meeting then alternative weeks you would be involved on a Thursday morning, so you wouldn't really get back home until late on Thursday evening. That gives you the Friday the Saturday and sometimes Sunday, I'm not saying that because that is really how things were. There would be invitations to this and that and you would not disregard those. It's a full-time job being a constituency AM. I can't vouch, I notice from the questions presented, for the list, I would think it's well nigh impossible.

Lord Richard

Your workload as a constituency MP, how many letters a week? Some idea of what it was like?

Gareth Jones

Between the Cardiff office and the e-mails, I would estimate in terms of e-mails and that kind of communication, the letters, it would have to be something in the region of 60, 50 to 60 a day, I would think in terms of. Now some of them would not require a lot of attention. But there would be that kind of volume. What I did find over the four years and learning, as it were, that you rely very much on your staff, the personal assistant and the researchers and so on and the briefing and getting that kind of information. That was very helpful. That was something which, had I been re-elected I would be looking at to improve that all the time. But the role of the staff is very, very important. I think we shouldn't under estimate that.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

You referred to the bad mouthing of the Assembly, so to speak, in your local paper. Do you think that the decision to cut down the number of Committee meetings from once a fortnight to one in three weeks, do you think that will increase this bad publicity, or do you think it was reasonable?

Gareth Jones

Again, I wasn't in there this time on the reasons for that. But it does seem as if we are lessening the work load of the Assembly Member and that would again be shown in a bad light. The three weeks -- I would also ask you to look very carefully at the concerns there are in terms of what is actually presented for debate. Because I believe the question, one of the questions relates to what aspect would you drop, as it were. We all have to be honest. You have to look at the nature of what is presented before debate. Is that worthy of the Assembly, the people of Wales? Because we have been accused of, all the parties presumably of introducing debates that are not relevant to the Assembly. That can be perceived again as a waste of time. But in terms of the perception out there I would say that that would count against the Assembly, as the image of the Assembly.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

But, for example, the debates in Plenary, it was slightly suggested to us earlier today, or yesterday that proceedings in Committee were on the whole pretty worthwhile, not perfect, but worthwhile, but on the other hand proceedings in Plenary were not well conducted and in particular insufficient time was given to consideration of legislation. Would you be inclined to agree with that?

Gareth Jones

Again, one has to remember in terms of the legislation and that question, it is a very important question, but many of us certainly four years ago would have been quite raw to that aspect of Government. We're not like MPs who are involved in this all the time and learn quickly in terms of procedures. We just -- it is a step up, if you like, from a County Council in a way. I don't mean that in any demeaning way. That's the way of things. Once you move into the legislation it was improving, as far as I could see, and we were getting increased research facilities, which would have been essential. You just haven't got the time, I certainly would not have had the time had you been asking me, you have to spend a couple of days looking at this and going through the Bills. That would certainly involve and entail a lot more work and almost, I would say, a different approach. I can't explain it properly to you. There has to be an essential difference between an MP and am AM. Is there a sort of an in between?

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Take your example. One or two MPs were referring to 60 hours work into Standing Committee on one Bill. The comparison with the hours that we were being told about by the Members of the Assembly, I mean, was very startling.

Gareth Jones

Yes. Our work is far and away simpler from my, even as the Chair of Education, what it entails, I felt the Committee was quite reasonably successful. I mean Committees were successful in that they would listen and take the evidence on board which was very, very exciting and very good because you have got the messages from different parts of Wales and that all that would be collated and quite expertly so, in fairness to the secretariat and the officers involved, and that would be presented as a report and I would think that those reports are very, very useful for us in Wales. Now obviously the test then and the challenge and the responsibility lies with the Government of Wales in translating that report into actual plans or schemes of work or implementation. Obviously allocating sufficient resources for that. But I think the Committees as they work are reasonably successful.

Peter Price

I would like to pursue the work volume issue. Clarify on the days you talked about, Thursday Committees, alternative weeks. Did that mean some weeks, one week in two you would be able to get away on a Wednesday night to catch a train?

Gareth Jones

Possibly. That would be very late on a Wednesday because, I mean, the session would, Plenary would end at 5.30 and you'd be lucky to catch the quarter to six. So you would be home about 11 o'clock on a Wednesday. But that would rarely be the case because quite often you would have meetings down in Cardiff on the Thursday morning.

Peter Price

Apart from your alternative week Committees there were sometimes other Thursday morning meetings.

Gareth Jones

Yes.

Peter Price

As a Committee Chairman you were able to fit that into, I mean the extra work of being the Chairman of the Committee, you were able to fit into that time in Cardiff presumably.

Gareth Jones

Yes, yes. It did entail sometimes Fridays in South Wales, obviously, because there would be a request for the Chair to either attend some kind of presentation or whatever. Then I would make arrangements to stay down in Cardiff. I would ask you, because you are looking at the workload, I did envy, I would say, I don't know how many in terms of percentage, let's say about 50 to 60% of AMs who can look to Cardiff as almost an hour, hour and a half within commuting distance. Whereas we don't perceive it that way at all and there is a difference there.

Lord Richard

Can I ask you two other questions about the working of the Assembly and the workload of AMs. Looking at it from the outside if ever there was a case for the usual channels it's the Assembly. It seems to be totally lacking. Is this a false sort of view?

Gareth Jones

In which way?

Lord Richard

They don't seem to be able to agree anything as basic as the seating. I can't imagine that would cause a great row in most Parliaments. Do the whips meet together regularly to iron it out?

Gareth Jones

Yes, each and every party has a business manager let's say. They meet and they decide business. I am not---

Lord Richard

That's not done publicly?

Gareth Jones

No. We have as Committee, or as a Plaid group every Tuesday morning we had a report from say that business and we would get snippets of information. That seating, for example, would have been mentioned in a feedback to us, then we would take a line on it. Presumably what this they have done is we will put these amendments in, which is a bit of a nonsense. Personally I would say there are far more important things. If they want to sit together, let them. Makes no difference to me personally.

Lord Richard

What about party discipline and the whips? Did you get a piece of paper every week with lines on it?

Gareth Jones

No, nothing like that as such. In our case we would have the staff who would present papers for us to prepare in terms of the agenda and taking to the chamber. On that there would be the business proposals, if you like, and the list of items for debate and accordingly they would have been classified as priority, high, medium, low and we would act accordingly, obviously high priority would mean we should be there voting. As a party in opposition we were not really ever in a sort of embarrassing situation as such, where I believe there has been on this occasion where it's so very close.

Lord Richard

Were there disageements?

Gareth Jones

We tend to fall out. We can be petty about these things. Sometimes there would be -- if somebody said something insulting then we're not pairing it. I believe that there has to be, you have got to have that in time, I think it will happen eventually.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Is it possible that the recent decision by the Labour administration to go to it alone when they got 30 out of the 60 seats has led to a certain amount of friction as, for example, on the matter of the seating which would otherwise have been worked out through the Business Committee?

Dr Laura McAllister

There is no pairing.

Gareth Jones

No pairing for the obvious reason that we would wish to embarrass Labour. But then, again, you can come back to the original idea of the Assembly and the inclusively, which presumably has gone out through the window, but it was all sort of inclusive at one time and you don't hear much about that these days.

Ted Rowlands

The attempt by Westminster whips to stop pairing was always overcome by the ingenuity of the Members.

Lord Richard