COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

EVIDENCE OF:

Joint Committee for Ethnic Minorities in Wales

held at

Caradog House, Cardiff

On

FRIDAY 25 JULY 2003

In Attendance

Lord Richard Eira Davies

Tom Jones

Peter Price

Ted Rowlands

Vivienne Sugar

Paul Valerio

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth KCB (in attendance part thereof)

Mr Tunj Fahm

Ms Sabrina Khan

Mr Sabz Ali Khan

Proceedings

Lord Richard

I would grateful if you could identify yourselves for the sake of the transcript. Following that, could one of you open the issues to us and then we can have a discussion on whatever you would wish to address to us.

Tunji Fahm

I will introduce my team but before doing so, I start with myself. I am Tunji Fahm and I am the Joint Convenor for the Joint Committee for Ethnic Minorities in Wales. I started life in Wales in the 1950s when I came as a student.

I am a lawyer by profession. I was Called to the Bar 1967 and I currently practice as a Solicitor with High Court Advocacy Rights.

On my left is Mr Sabz Ali Khan. Mr Khan runs his own consultancy and he is an Immigration Adviser and, in addition, a joint Convenor.

To my right is Ms Sabrina Khan, daughter of one of our Members who received her degree from the University of Glamorgan the previous week. She is due to start on a legal course in September at Cardiff University.

Yes, that is the line up.

Lord Richard

Yes, thank you very much indeed. I would be very grateful if you would make an opening statement.

Tunji Fahm

We have already submitted to you a paper on how we see the current situation in the Welsh Assembly. I will not go over the contents of our paper except to inform you that we feel the opportunity offered by the establishment of the Richard Commission should not be wasted. We take the view that a Constitution is a living instrument and that way back in 1989 the late Lord Hailsham was talking and writing about devolution in the context of the whole of Britain. However, we have read the submissions from ethnic organisations to your Commission and we will not go over common ground but restrict ourselves to matters that are of concern to us.

We would wish for you to seriously consider the current situation of the Assembly.

We had Assembly elections in Wales 4 years ago which yielded an Assembly with not a single Black or Asian person. It was the hope of all of us, including white members of the community, that the 2003 elections to the same Assembly would at least yield one Black Minority Ethnic member for the Assembly. The Labour Party ‘zipped in’ five BME candidates to the five list seats available throughout Wales but in spite of this gallant and praiseworthy effort, the result was still that there was not a single Black/Asian candidate elected to the Assembly.

We are now left in a situation where as someone said to my friend here 2 years ago and as was said infamously of the Third Reich in Hitler’s Germany ‘You have a thousand years to wait before we can see a black face in the Assembly’.

We do not think that. That is why we have quoted extensively from the Scarman Report and the next question is what can be done?

We suggest that when the Government of Wales Act went through Parliament, the idea of proportional representation was to ensure every aspect and every section of the community was represented in the community.

We would ask you and your Commission to consider the various alternatives proposed in your Consultation Document in respect of the 20 seats allocated to election by way of proportional representation to ensure a fair balance in the representation of the people of Wales because without that, we would continue to be marginalised.

No matter what the Assembly decides to do by way of grants and subventions to ethnic minority organisations the answer is to ensure as was said in the Scarman Report, that the people - we mean Black/Asian people, play a part in the governance of their own area. That is why we have decided to come before you.

Another point which we will take relates to Race Relations itself. We have in Wales an office of the Commission for Racial Equality. Recently the Chief Executive of the Commission in Wales was removed at the behest of the Chairman of the Commission in London. We do not think that is right.

Race Relations is not a devolved subject to the Assembly. I will however tell you of our experience of the implementation of the Race Relations Act in Wales. A Pakistani was shot dead in Neath some 3 or 4 years ago and about a year ago a Sikh gentleman was the subject of a vicious assault which resulted in death. We took the matter up with the Police Complaints Authority with a request for confirmation that the Authority had a Member representing Wales. We were informed that all appointments to the Authority are made by the Home Office after consultation where appropriate with the Secretary of State for Wales. We do not think that is good enough.

We do not see why Race Relations in Wales should be the subject of control and management from an Office in London. It is important that the provisions of the Government of Wales Act 1998 should be used as it was recently used in respect of the Fire Service, to devolve Race Relations from the Home Office to the Assembly. This would be in line with the provisions of the Act which enjoins the Assembly to have regard to equality of opportunity in all its activities and in the discharge of its functions.

These are the two points we want to put before you and ask you to consider them very carefully indeed.

We come here today under our own steam and in our own time.

Lord Richard

Could I deal with the two points you made. The first point you made is that there is no ethnic representation in the National Assembly, and that something must be done. I have sympathy with the em pass behind those words but what, precisely, is it you would like to be done? How do you think the Assembly could do it?

Tunji Fahm

There is the STV system which is suggested in your Consultation Document. Ethnicity has now been defined in Britain. The Act which authorised national census in England and Wales classified non-white people in the UK into five broad categories namely, Black African, African-Caribbean, East African Asian, Asian, Irish. Positive discrimination is a doctrine recently endorsed by the American Supreme Court but what we want the Commission to consider is how to amend the present section of Government of Wales dealing with List seats on the Assembly to at least throw up one non-white candidate at the next Assembly election.

Lord Richard

Yes, I understand that.

Tunji Fahm

I have a paper to circulate through your Secretariat which opitimises what is happening in London. Have you lived in London all your life?

Lord Richard

Not really.

Tunji Fahm

You will see from this paper that things are changing very rapidly in London. Even the Conservatives are clamouring for Black and Asian people to come and join and be part of their party.

Vivienne Sugar

Some of the ideas people have suggested so far have already started in schools, to think about how children from a black and ethnic minority background can be engaged with the ideas of politics and participation. We have heard people from the BME communities who could be involved in local authorities and councils. That might give them a platform from which to aspire to be Assembly Members or to MPs.

We have heard ideas about how the Assembly can have a better engagement with BME communities in Wales so that people who are perhaps in business or whatever, would suddenly think if they have seen something in operation, that would inspire them to get involved politically, and so on.

There are also ideas for the political parties to do more training for potential candidates, to try and get people on to short-lists. You, yourself, have mentioned ideas like zipping.

In your submission to us you say that the Commission may have to take bold steps to tackle the racial disadvantaged, and so on.

Are there any other ideas like that in addition to the Paper that you are going to give us where you think it would make a real, practical difference in the short-term to enabling people to be elected?

Tunji Fahm

I have personally been part of the electoral process both in 1999 and 2003 and what experience has taught us is that unless drastic changes are made to the current legislation Black/Asian representation in the Assembly would continue to be an unrealisable dream. The answer lies in amendment to the Act which would encourage - or perhaps force - registered political parties to include Black/Asian candidates on their lists at a level where they stand a chance of being elected.

Vivienne Sugar

Yes, we will not recommend Armani suits!

How could we recommend alteration of the proportionality system of the lists to try and better the chances of ethnic minority candidates to be elected? How would it have to work? Is it something to do with numbers of the people on the regional lists or, to do with the fact that, so far, none of the Parties, I think I am right in saying, adopted someone from a ethnic minority to be a constituency candidate in available seats.

Tunji Fahm

Yes, but then how are we going to be sure? You see the democracy throws up things we do not know. You can't force people to vote for you.

A woman came up to me in Pontypool. She spoke very well. I said to her, "Why are you not voting for me?" She replied, "It's a bit too soon for people like you". I said, "Thank you very much".

All we are saying is for this Commission to look into this aspect. I agree with everything that you say, children and the future and all that, but how long do we wait for the future?

You can see the precedent being built up in the Assembly and all those who entered the Assembly in 1999 through the List were returned through the same process in 2003. It is as though these seats are now reserved for named political parties and non-members of these parties have no way in..

We see that the only way in is through a recommendation from the Richard Commission and this requires the Commission to be bold in their advice to the Welsh Assembly Government and correct an anomaly that is staring everyone in the face.

Lord Richard

Okay.

Ted Rowlands

You said you wanted the Commission's Race Relations Act to be devolved with powers. Everybody has, to date, I believe assumed that that had to be GB or UK.

Sir, do you not have differential forms of legislation in there as Race Relations?

Tunji Fahm

No but the fact that a satellite office of the Commission operates from Cardiff is proof that powers of the CRE can properly be devolved to the Assembly pursuant to the duties imposed on it by the Government of Wales Act 1998.

Ted Rowlands

In its very nature, devolution, when it is drawn from the devolved power, you get variation between England, Wales and Scotland. But what kind of variation do you think is similar?

Tunji Fahm

There would be little variation in the exercise of the powers but by definition the implementation of the relevant Acts of Parliament would take account of local conditions and the views of the Welsh Assembly Government on specific issues.

Ted Rowlands

To clarify appointments to Commissions and Boards and things should be Assembly responsibilities.

Tunji Fahm

Yes

Ted Rowlands

Yes, that is clarified.

Tunji Fahm

Yes, that is what is it.

Mr Khan

I support my friend. However, the other things I wanted to speak on include equality of opportunity.

I have lived in Wales for a long time and, why we chose Wales as our home is because it is the best place in the world to live. The devolution system is a little bit unfamiliar but we are going forward and the Assembly is in shape, like a local authority or county council but I think we are moving in the right direction.

The opportunities for us are very, very minimal. To take this young lady (indicates) she completed her Law Degree but she could not get to practice in Wales.

Lord Richard

Why is it they cannot practice?

Mr Khan

They do not allow them.

Lord Richard

Who can stop them?

Mr Khan

You mean at the Chambers?

Lord Richard

Yes, in the Chambers.

Mr Khan

This young lady, just as so many others, when they have had their vocational training, they would not get a contract.

Lord Richard

Yes, pupillage.

Mr Khan

What we suffer we suffer everywhere. We do not want it that way; we want a future for them. They can get training in other things. For example we are the founders of NHS, and we do not want the NHS dying in Wales.

For our medical and dentist schools, we have only 55 seats. Those 55 seats must be increased. We spend much more in the dental schools so why should it not be 100 plus? There is a need for increased provision of places in medical and dental schools. Currently there are 43 psychiatrists none of whom is from ethnic minority background. Courses for this discipline should be started here. So in our principality, why not start the courses?

That is my submission, my Lord.

Vivienne Sugar

To pursue this point, we now have one new school, a new medical school which was started last year based in Swansea. I just wondered, is there is yet any evidence of the idea of creating a medical school which is to train doctors in Wales that would then stay in Wales to practice? I wondered if there is any evidence of setting up a new medical school which is to engage young people from black and ethnic minority backgrounds to apply because it is local or, whether you think, because of their training, they have to go away.

Mr Khan

Yes madam, people from overseas would in 4 to 5 years time retire as GPs and some of them will die. What now happens is the local new people would not go to fulfil those roles. So, it our children, provided they can be enrolled in medical school or in the dentist school would be prepared to work.

Once you live in Wales you would like to go to no other corner of any place; it is a nice place. If they get education here they will do well. We try to serve our people.

So, in our society we should help people with special needs, black or white but we have to have something for them because those people cannot get in to any school after their A-level results. So, if you have a reserved seat in dental, medical schools or law school, that is helpful for our economy and society.

My last point is if we get power to the Assembly, to abolish the student fees so the whole community in Wales will benefit, I would be very much obliged.

Lord Richard

Yes, well...

Ms Khan

Regarding Mr Khan's point on wanting to know whether or not people that have opened up a medical school and whether people from Asian communities stay here after they have completed their education, the answer to that question is yes, madam. That is because, usually, in an Asian society they have close roots to family and they do not move around a lot.

So, if you had more seats for dentistry and psychiatry or perhaps doctors, they would stay here mainly due to their family. Therefore, if you were to up the Member seats, yes, they would stay.

Also, with regard to the point about 'A' levels and people failing the entry requirements, there are quite high levels sometimes.

I am a student but I am sure all of you remember that just because you fail an exam it does not necessarily mean you are stupid.

To take up that point, if there were a few reserved seats providing a foundation course to bring them up to standard, then I am sure they could enter on to the course whether it be to practice as a doctor or a dentist et cetera. In that way, you would fill the vacancies now that are available in Wales. That is all I have to say.

Lord Richard

Yes, thank you very much.

Tunji Fahm

Thank you for your time. Is there any point you want me to explain or clarify further?

Lord Richard

If I may say, I think you have been extremely clear and forceful. We know exactly what your position is, and that is more than we can say for some of the people that have been here today.

Tunji Fahm