COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

EVIDENCE OF:

Mr Brian Hancock

held at

Caradog House, Cardiff

On

THURSDAY 10 JULY 2003

In Attendance

Lord Richard

Dr Laura McAllister

Ted Rowlands

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Tom Jones

Peter Price

Eira Davies

Brian Hancock

Proceedings

Lord Richard

Thank you all very much coming. Please introduce yourselves, for the purpose of the transcript. Secondly, please open up the discussion. I have just been handed a piece of paper. Did you want me to read it?

Brian Hancock

I do apologise about it being a bit late. I would have preferred to have had it in before, so you would have had a glance over it.

Lord Richard

Please take us through it.

Brian Hancock

My name is Brian Hancock. I am the first and former member of the National Assembly of Wales for Islwyn. I was narrowly beaten on May 1^st.

Thank you, Chair, for this opportunity to make a presentation to your commission. It is an important opportunity, and I hope to be able to contribute to your deliberations.

In front of you I have left some information and some details. I have tried to look at the National Assembly of Wales from a personal point of view, and think in terms of an ordinary person’s view of it. I have tried to steer away from lots of the party political dogma on it. However, I am a keen supporter and promoter of the process of devolution, and I would like to go further on that.

I wanted to fight for the assembly because I felt that I had a contribution that I could make to the improvement to the life of Wales, both in the quality of life and the quantity, as in economic liability.

As you can see, I have not come from a county councillor background, or from a teaching background. I am a chemical engineer by profession. I have many years industrial experience, both as a poacher and gamekeeper, and as a consultant. I worked for the Health and Safety Executive, and I have various qualifications other than in chemical engineering, including occupational health and safety. I am a registered safety practitioner. Before being elected, I ran my own consultancy in health and safety, and management issues. I successfully did that for at least five years.

After getting elected, I gave up that business because I could not devote enough time to that business and to be a full-time assembly member. I felt it was my duty and responsibility, once I had been elected by the people of Islwyn, to do as much as I possibly could to make our lot better.

It used to bemuse me that, over the years, so many things have been done to the people of Wales. I felt that if there was somebody with grey matter between their ears, feet on the ground, not afraid of hard work, so we could actually do a better job, and do something much better for the people of Wales.

When the second devolution vote came up, I became heavily involved in it. I felt that it was my time to put up or shut up. I am very much a doer type person. I believed that, with 60 members of the assembly, between us we would have had enough similarities of priorities that we ought to have been able to come to a master set of priorities whereby working together we would be able to contribute to the way of life, and improve things in Wales, our health, our education, our economic activity. However, I was soon dissuaded from that.

Successive first ministers, and the situation of moving from corporate, as in the Government of Wales Act being promoted, to a conflict situation, saw us fighting against things. That frustrated me a little. I felt that we were missing an opportunity whereby we could actually get a better way of life for the people of Wales.

I have been frustrated, in some respects, from every opportunity to improve, suggest, or amend an idea or proposal, as they were refused out of hand. Perhaps I was looking at it naively and thinking that everything was going to be improved. I still believe in the corporate way of getting things done.

I have tried to give a couple of incidents where we failed to spark and enthuse the people of Wales. There is a whole series of events. I am not going to go into detail – foot and mouth, GM crops, teachers’ pay, firefighters’ pay. Even the debate about the chamber and reorganising the national health service in Wales, when we have so many other problems, did not seem to be the right priority. To spend money to do something like that, when we ought to be doing something that is going to make the life better for the people of Wales.

I sat on the Economic Development Committee for three years. I tried to encompass, not just the companies within my own constituency, but also the companies throughout Wales. I talked to them and tried to find out what they needed and what they thought that we could do for them. Also, how I, as an assembly member, and being on the Economic Development Committee, be able to see their problems, and develop, and hopefully make the government understand what was going on.

Then we have the NEDS exercise, which was like two to three years of almost going round in circles. I felt frustrated by that. It was not as if we were not listening to what was going on. NEDS is the National Economic Development Strategy. When that happened, we went round Wales, as a committee, taking evidence. Then we went around again, with the minister doing it, as if once was not good enough. I felt that was a waste of time, and that we were missing an opportunity to move on.

Then we think in terms of what has happened with transportation within Wales. No matter how much the minister and we tried, because of the problems and the priorities that the Strategic Rail Authority had, we could not impart upon them the priorities we had in Wales. That was something else that I felt we could have done better on.

Perhaps the ministers can come to the committee and be consultants of the minister, can discuss with the minister, and scrutinize, but then the minister can make his or her mind up completely on their own. In some respects, the committee could be a more working party, more contributory to the development of policy and not just a straightforward sponge, or overloading with the work of getting papers ready the night before to be discussed the day after.

My former colleague, Professor Phil Williams, specifically had problems with the contribution that he was making. He would find that all the work that he had done was to no avail because the decision had been made elsewhere.

The Assembly has not been able to convince the people of Wales of the importance of it. Or perhaps it is the other way round, and the people of Wales have not understood the difference between the National Assembly—I was often asked, we are in the assembly, what are you doing about it? I would have to explain that I am that person’s representative, I can make their views felt, I can contribute, but in the end it is not my decision because I am not in the government. I think the people of Wales had that expectation of the National Assembly, as being able to reflect the views of the people of Wales. We had failed to make that difference.

Subsequently, the divorce between the identity for the National Assembly, and the identity for the Welsh Assembly government has come through. That is beginning to work now. That will be very useful, to be able to develop that further.

Some of the other considerations in the early days: the executive, or civil service, was extremely new, as we were. They applied the same sort of rules that they have always applied. They felt it difficult. In the past four years, I have noticed a real change. They are able to see opportunities and ways of developing policies for Wales that could be very much better. I look forward to that because I believe they are really trying to push for Wales and the people of Wales.

We have had a couple of failures. The assembly, and/or the First Minister via the Secretary of State for Wales, has failed in some respects to be able to get the importance of the priority of certain work within Wales realised within Westminster. To get it realised as a government priority, or even to spend the time discussing it. The simple example there would be the bank holiday for St David’s Day. Everybody felt that that was a good cause and should be developed. However, we could not do it ourselves.

The other thing that is interesting is that, in the past four years, the Secretary of State’s staff has increased from 22 people, to 44 to 52. It strikes me that they are trying to shoehorn any priorities for Wales into current or pending UK legislation. If Wales had its own powers, similar to Scotland, we could be saving that time by developing things in Wales for Wales.

As quickly as I possibly can there, I have gone through an introduction. On the rest of my paper, I have tried to answer the questions that have been posed to members. As a way of self-publicising, I have put my career background in the back, to give a demonstration of why I thought I had a contribution to make. I felt that I gave up something to actually do something that I thought would be quite worthwhile.

Lord Richard

Can I ask you one or two questions? When you were an assembly member, what was the balance of your work? How much time do you have to spend on constituency matters?

Brian Hancock

I have given a sort of timetable of work that I used to do. I gave about 110% of my time to it. I was always at work. I am sure MPs are equally always at work. I felt it was important to represent the people of my constituency, and to meet them, be they local organisations, schools, businesses, anything that promotes whatever work was going on within the assembly to ensure that their voice would get through.

A typical week: Monday was constituency day. That could be meetings with businesses or schools during the day. Then meeting with constituents in the evening.

Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday would be assembly time. Bear in mind, my constituency is quite close. I could travel home and meet constituents on those evenings. My secretary had to stop me because I was doing two or three meetings an evening. There was a case that I might burn out, so she reigned me in.

Thursdays were a mixture day. At one time I sat on the standards committee. I also sat on the business partnership council. The party group asked me, because of my small business background, to be the spokesperson for small businesses. Therefore I had an opportunity to link in with various business organisations, both small and large.

Friday afternoons – in the four years I only missed two Fridays, when I was not in my surgery in the constituency. Those two days were missed because of my mother’s funeral. I would religiously be in there, and I would accept constituents, and I would listen to their problems and act on their problems.

Every other Saturday morning I would visit various locations within the constituency, and at the surgery. Sometimes there would be very few people there, sometimes there would be 20 or so people there. I felt it was extremely important to get out and meet the people, and be accessible. Often we are accused, as politicians, of only being seen during election time. I really wanted to make sure that was not the case with me.

Lord Richard

How do you feel about the need or otherwise for primary legislative powers to be provided?

Brian Hancock

I am keen that we need to do it. We need to develop because of certain things that have happened that we have not been able to follow through, for instance, GM crops. We talk about teachers’ pay. We can talk about how the various aspects of shoehorning in the health bill, for argument’s sake. There were clauses relating to Wales there. In actual fact, the whole complication was of having two bills in one bill, when it could have been one bill, just for Wales.

There are difficulties. It was shown during discussions, the confusion of who did and did not have the powers. That was everybody’s learning curve. That needs to be sorted out.

Lord Richard

Do you think we need more members?

Brian Hancock

I said yes, for two reasons. Firstly, we need a balance of time of being able to be involved with the discussions of the issues, in consultation and in scrutiny, to ensure we are getting the best. To actually give that a fair balance, we would probably need more members.

Lord Richard

How many more?

Brian Hancock

That is an interesting question. I would go for 20 more members. Then we would have a situation where you could have another 20 regional people, so we would have a balance between constituencies and regions. The one I prefer is to have two AMs per constituency, and both by proportional representation. Therefore, we would get a balance throughout Wales of people being able to contribute to Wales. Some people may say that we should just have smaller constituencies. But I like the idea of the electorate being able to vote for two people.

It would be very confusing to change from parliamentary constituencies. We have to be consistent. There have been too many changes over the years. There may be nuances, and certain boundaries may want to be drawn to make it easier for certain areas where they may have two or three constituencies.

Dr Laura McAllister

What was the relationship with list members in your area?

Brian Hancock

Quite good. Fortunately for me, I sat next to one, Phil Williams. Jocelyn Davies was the other. I got on well with William Graham and Mike German. Basically, because two of the people were in my party we decided that anyone who had any problems in Islwyn, they would come to me. If it was then in the north or the south, they would go to the others. If they did not feel that I was responding properly to them, I would suggest that they would go to see one of the others. I do not think that anybody ever did that.

Dr Laura McAllister

Do you think list members from the other parties were cherry-picking issues in your area?

Brian Hancock

Yes. That is bound to happen, in some respects. If a list member has a wider area, they can gloss over some subjects, and therefore just cherry-pick.

Lord Richard

Can you give us some idea of the volume of people that you had coming to see you?

Brian Hancock

On average I have 12 to 15 people come to see me every week, in both surgeries. My largest surgery, on a Saturday morning, I had 19 people.

Ted Rowlands

Do you honestly think that you have [inaudible]? With a three-day week, 35 weeks a year?

Brian Hancock

I am glad you raised that. I do not think we do enough work. I was one of the first to say, this is ridiculous. The long three-month, 13-week break is crazy. Having said that, I certainly did not take more than two weeks off. I continued to work in my constituency, taking opportunities to meet people. Obviously the schools were out, but I was meeting businesses and the like. I was also able to go flower shows, or concerts or fetes, and be seen and accessible to people. I do believe that if we are serious about it—Of course, this comes from my industrial background of doing 60 hours a week, because that is how I have been brought up.

To be able to properly consult, discuss and scrutinize any of the issues, we need to be able to look at the balance of time that we have. This is not a criticism of the committee’s secretariat, because all the work they give us, they have to do it first. They are extremely pressurised. I used to worry about them as well. I used to tell them off as well, especially one particular clerk would go home very late. I felt that they were working too hard.

Ted Rowlands

Because of the parliamentarians, is committee just sitting once every other week? I sat on one of the biggest parliamentary sub-committees and we sat weekly as a matter of principle. When I put this to some of the assembly members, they say that the secretariat is not there to support it. Is it a matter of capacity? Therefore any increase in powers would mean a significant increase in the assembly capacity?

Brian Hancock

I do believe that is the case. Over the past four years, I have seen the amount of work that we have got through, and the amount of work it takes to produce that, with the reports, the amount of people involved with the secretariat has grown to support that. That has worked quite well.

We have also seen a development of the library and research services. That has taken some work off the secretariat, as additional briefing papers are available to help members get through the workload. Because we are all ambitious, our workload, in terms of the forward program, was pretty busy. Sometimes we crammed so much in, that I wonder if we did not give enough time to each of those topics.

In theory I have seen that there are times when we are twiddling our thumbs, where we are going into minute detail on areas where it is not necessary. On the other hand, when we have really needed to discuss something, there was not enough time available.

Lord Richard

Which committees were you on?

Brian Hancock

Economic Development. Local Government and Housing, for the first year. Then I was on the Environment Planning and Transport committee.

The first year I was on Local Government and Housing, and Economic Development. For the following three years, I was on Economic Development, and Environment Planning and Transport. I also sat on the House Committee for two years, and the Standards of Conduct Committee.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

On your opening address, you are slightly critical of the National Assembly. On the other hand, it is a very new institution. It was not born as a result of mature deliberations, as in Scotland. Do you not think you are perhaps being a little hard? There is the remarkable fact that the people of Wales, seem to be more supported by the Assembly now than they were in 1997. I was just wondering if you were not slightly under-selling yourself.

Brian Hancock

That is a very good point. Perhaps I do sound hard. That is mainly because I have been a dedicated supporter of the assembly. Perhaps I should not have been discussing how important the assembly is to Wales and what we ought to be doing with it.

Some things have happened that are really important. The financial books of Wales were opened with the National Assembly. In some respects, that was not done before. That is a huge plus point. A discussion began about the Barnet formula, and how that is calculated. To look at comparisons, and to learn about comparability factors, which were never talked about before.

Perhaps I was being a bit critical, but mainly of myself, because I am such a supporter of it. I felt that, as I was talking people, that they were saying things like, well you are in the National Assembly, why are you doing so and so? I would tell them that I was trying. It is perhaps a criticism of the government and not of the National Assembly.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Can I ask a second question? After your first session, from this moment, what would be your absolutely key objectives for the new National Assembly to follow?

Brian Hancock

There are a couple. We would need to look at transportation, for one thing. Perhaps we should have a passenger transport authority. The equivalent would be the Strategic Rail Authority. This would be to develop transport systems within Wales to suit the people of Wales. I wanted to link north and south, and we have seen that happen. I wanted to see the Cardiff, Wales airport in action, and connected to the transport systems, particularly rail, especially a high-speed link.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Is that within your powers?

Brian Hancock

Yes. The SRA have such significant problems and priorities in the UK, that the priority of Wales is not so high. I know that the Vale of Glamorgan line is opening up. It is being developed. Also, I was very keen on seeing the passenger rail link opening from Ebbw Vale to Newport, which goes through Islwyn. I felt it was a line that was operational and should never have been taken out. It was still being used as steel, and was rusting. There is a commitment to follow that through, but the government had to make that commitment when the SRA told them it was not to be done.

I believe there is an opportunity for us to develop that, for all sorts of things. Not just for economic development, but also for tourism.

Lord Richard

How did you find the staff at the government? Were they helpful or did you feel they were working only for the government?

Brian Hancock

At first, yes. I asked questions and managed to talk to people. I am able to get people to talk to me, which is important. I did have one or two civil servants say that they were not allowed to talk to me. I told them that if they felt uncomfortable, not to worry about it. I certainly was not going to make a problem for those people. I do not believe in putting people in awkward places just for the sake of it. To work together we need some sort of relationship where we trust each other, and honour each other as people.

Tom Jones

I have two issues on what your CV highlights. The first is, you say that were the first back-bench assembly member to successfully win secondary legislation. What did you mean by that? Secondly, the issue of saving the sub post office. That is where you dealt with a UK Parliamentary Minister. Please comment on what his reaction to you was, as an assembly member.

Brian Hancock

On the first question, secondary legislation is a ballot system. My name came out of the ballot and I went for secondary legislation. I was the first AM to actually pass that through by getting the assembly to agree to it and therefore having direction on the minister to bring forward regulations to the piece of careers education that I was looking at.

That was an interesting situation. I had been involved in school governing for many years. At that point in time, I wanted to do away with league tables. In the research and the help that I had from the legal department, we found that it was within the portfolio of the minister to do that. All that the law required the minister to do was to give information, in whatever form, he or she felt it was necessary. I made the suggestion, when the minister became the minister, to simply give out the information of how each school has done against its county average and against the Welsh average. If the newspapers wanted to ring every school to get the information, to make their tables, then that would have been up to the newspapers. Basically, I was keen to realise that each school gives a good contribution to our young people, and not to set one against the other.

Tom Jones

Can you describe the process? You came up with the ballot, then you went to lobbyists? Then you brought something into a committee?

Brian Hancock

Actually, on that point, I never sat on the Education Committee.

Tom Jones

The vote was in favour of your proposal, so the minister was duty bound to accept?

Brian Hancock

Yes, and that was a fair way. The hole that I found was that it was mandatory to give careers advice up to the age of 16, but not mandatory from 16 to 19. Lots of good educational establishments – further educations and higher educations – would give this advice, but they did not have to. I wanted to develop the situation of education for life, but careers not for life. The fact is, that over the years you might have several careers.

Peter Price

Can I pin down the amount of time which is typically involved for a member to be here attending committees and plenaries. You have given an indication of the daily routine. What happens on a Tuesday?

Brian Hancock

On Tuesday morning there are typically meetings for business members and also group meetings. In the Business Committee, party business members would meet the Business Minister. In addition to that, there would be group meetings to discuss the week’s business.

Peter Price

Does that allow people travelling time to get here? What sort of time do meetings start?

Brian Hancock

They would start at about 10.30am, or 10.45am. Different groups have different times.

Peter Price

There is a plenary on Tuesday that finishes at 5.30pm. What happens on Wednesday?

Brian Hancock

Wednesday afternoon there is a plenary as well, that is from 2pm to 5pm again. In the morning, from 9am to 12.30pm, there would be a committee meeting. That would be a rotating committee meeting. In the early years, I was on a committee every week. In the latter year, I was on a committee every other week.

Peter Price

The plenary lasts until 5.30pm again on Wednesday afternoon. What happens on Thursday?

Brian Hancock

Originally, Thursday morning was plenary, but we changed it to Wednesday afternoon. When the change occurred, on Thursday mornings there would be other committees. We would not be able to fit all the committees in on Wednesday, so there would be a selection and a timetable to cover that. For argument’s sake, I could be on Economic Development Committee on a Wednesday morning, and on Environment Planning and Transport on a Thursday morning.

Peter Price

What happens on Thursday afternoon?

Brian Hancock

There could be additional briefing meetings, informal committee meetings, and other set committees, such as House Committee, Standard Conduct.

Peter Price

Today there is nothing going on, is that typical?

Brian Hancock

For now, that is typical.

Peter Price

Is that because it is soon after an election and things have not got going again?

Brian Hancock

That is true. It is typical also in as much as there may not be anything ongoing on Thursday afternoons. For argument’s sake, I went to see my former colleagues on my floor. There are only three in, out of the 12. They have left to go back to their constituencies.

Peter Price

They are in their offices, rather than attending committees?

Brian Hancock

Yes.

Peter Price

How often do regional committees meet?

Brian Hancock

Quarterly. They would be in various locations throughout the region.

Eira Davies

Can you give us your views on improving the way that regional committees work?

Brian Hancock

Firstly, I have not so good news. If somebody came to a regional committee and the question could not be answered, the chair would have to write to the minister concerned to get the answer. If the minister was present, or happened to be in that region, then perhaps you would get an answer immediately. Obviously the minister’s timetable may not have them there all the time. The people who came to do open mike sessions, may not therefore get an answer to their questions. That is the Achilles heel.

On the other hand, it is extremely good that the public of Wales, and organisations of Wales, can actually come to the committee and make a presentation on their case. There have been all sorts of presentations. It is also good to say that the Government of Wales act states that theoretically there is only the committee of the north which has been extended to ensure that the whole of Wales has the same opportunity to engage with Assembly Members’.

Sometimes we felt ineffectual. There could be a good case that we have listened to, and you cannot give a satisfactory answer. It has to go back to the minister. That was frustrating, in some respects.

Also, Tom, I did not answer your second question about the post offices. With the help of friendly MPs, I was able to see the minister. He was in between meetings, and I went with a number of sub-postmasters. I gave him the petition, we had a short chat, and that was it. It was not very good. I did not think that the junior minister had enough time to spend with the postmasters who had made the journey up, and myself, to hear what the problems were.

I know that the postal service is a UK service, but realising the impact of sub post offices throughout Wales, perhaps if we had some responsibility or power there, we could have done something more specific.

Everybody realises the position of the rural sub post offices, and the importance they bring, but there is an importance that is not being fully recognised of the urban post offices. The post offices on housing estates and where senior citizens have gone for many years to cash their pension, because of the size of their business, they will never survive.

In the constituency, one is closing down next week, and one is potentially closing down. It is because the depth of business they have, to give them the turnover to sustain their business, there is an arbitrary one-mile radius for post offices.

I was able to talk about the plight of post offices. In fact, I felt like a post office employee. People called me Postman Pat there. I became renowned for being involved in it. In fact, in my time, I was able to support the opening of a community post office in a place called Mathern, near Chepstow. Also, close to here, I was instigating having a post office open in the assembly three days a week. I felt that was extremely important. Not just to have a post office here, but also to have the commitment, and to have banking facilities on site as well.

Lord Richard

I thank you very much for answering our questions and giving us the view from the inside.

Brian Hancock

Thank you very much, chair and members. I particularly enjoyed my time as an AM. I enjoyed it more than I realised, that is, after the event. I really enjoyed the fact that having the title meant that I could do things for people, that otherwise seemed to be impossible. I am sure Ted will agree with me there, that, as an MP, being able to help people is the most rewarding.