COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 of the

 EVIDENCE OF:

 Jill Evans MEP and Eurig Wyn MEP

 held at

Caradog House, Cardiff

On

FRIDAY 11 JULY 2003

In Attendance

Lord Richard

Eira Davies

Viv Sugar

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Tom Jones

Huw Thomas

Ted Rowlands

Dr Laura McAllister

Peter Price

Carys Evans, Secretary to the Commission

Jill Evans

Eurig Wyn

Proceedings

Lord Richard

Thank you for coming. Could you identify yourselves for the purposes of the record, then if you care to open up the discussions?

Jill Evans

Jill Evans, MEP, Plaid Cymru.

Eurig Wyn

Eurig Wyn, MEP, Plaid Cymru.

Byddaf yn eithaf cryno am nad ydw i’n siwr beth yw’r trefniadau yma. Ai cyflwyno rydyn ni mewn gwirionedd a chithau wedyn yn holi cwestiynau. Mae Plaid Cymru wrth gwrs wedi amlinellu ei barn, ei phryderon a’i hamcanion i chi ac yn wir, yr hyn maen nhw’n gobeithio fydd yn digwydd o ganlyniad fydd ffurf gryfach ar ddatganoli yr ydyn ni hefyd yn gobeithio y bydd yn digwydd. Ond rwy’n credu mai’r peth gorau i ni o ran sylwadau yw cyflwyno i chi yr hyn rydyn ni’n ei deimlo am sut mae pethau yn Ewrop a’r Undeb Ewropeaidd, ac amlinellu’r peryglon rydyn ni’n eu gweld pan fydd gennych chi ddwy lefel o ddatganoli’n ymddangos yn Ewrop, datganoli a fydd yn digwydd yn ddeddfwriaethol a hefyd yn ariannol. Mae’r rhain yn bwerau, wrth gwrs, sydd gan nifer o ranbarthau cryf yn Ewrop eisoes. Does dim diben i mi amlinellu’r rhain fan hyn. Rwy’n siwr eich bod yn gyfarwydd â phwerau sydd gan 17 senedd y Länder yn yr Almaen neu ranbarthau cryf Gwlad Belg neu Wlad y Basg neu Gatalwnia. Dyma’r rhanbarthau sy’n rhan o’r Grwp Seneddol y mae Jill Evans a Minnau’n aelodau ohono yn Senedd Ewrop a’r holl dystiolaeth rydyn ni’n ei glywed o ganlyniad i’r drafodaeth rydych chi’n gyfarwydd â hi a’r Confensiwn sy’n edrych ar ddyfodol Ewrop. Ar y naill law mae gennych chi ranbarthau â phwerau deddfwriaethol ac ar y llaw arall ranbarthau sydd â phwerau gweinyddol yn unig. Rwy’n credu bod angen i ni fod yn ofalus wrth drafod y gwahanu hwn fydd yn digwydd yn Ewrop am fod pawb yn awr yn siarad am ranbarthau deddfwriaethol cyfansoddiadol ac mae hyn yn rhywbeth sy’n fy mhryderu. Mae hyn o gonsyrn i bob plaid gobeithio sy’n credu mewn pwerau i’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yng Nghymru. Mae gennych chi’r ddwy lefel hyn yn ymddangos ac mae Cymru ar ei cholled. Rwy’n credu bod hyn yn eithaf canolog i mi sôn amdano ar ddechrau’r cyflwyniad hwn ac mae rhaid i ni holi pam. Beth yw’r gwahaniaeth rhwng Cymru a Gwlad y Basg sy’n talu arian yn ôl i Fadrid i ofalu am ei phwerau amddiffyn? Beth yw’r gwahaniaeth rhwng Cymru a Chatalwnia sy’n gwario £130 miliwn y flwyddyn ar ei hiaith ac sy’n llwyddo i wneud hynny? Beth yw’r gwahaniaeth rhwng Cymru a’r Alban, sydd ganddi hefyd wrth gwrs bwerau deddfwriaethol a phwerau cyllidol sy’n llawer cryfach na rhai Cymru? Pam dylai fod gwahaniaeth rhyngon ni a Gogledd Iwerddon? Mae gan Ogledd Iwerddon bwerau deddfwriaethol. Yn awr, mae’n ffwlbri llwyr eich bod chi’n gwahaniaethu rhwng y pwerau rhanbarthol o fewn y DU. Mae hi o gonsyrn mawr i ‘mhlaid i weld o fewn y DU yn gyfan yr amrywiad hwn o ran pwerau’n ymddangos ac amrywiaeth o ran pwerau economaidd, a’r amrywiaeth yn sgil hyn yng Nghynnyrch Cartref Crynswth o fewn y DU yn awr rhwng Llundain a De-ddwyrain Lloegr a gweddill rhanbarthau Prydain. Yn ôl yr ystadegau y gallaf eu dangos i chi o’r Comisiwn Ewropeaidd, mae’r gwahaniaeth rhanbarthol yn y DU yn 33 y cant – y gwahaniaeth rhanbarthol gwaethaf o holl wledydd Ewrop, yn waeth na’r gwahaniaeth rhwng de a gogledd yr Eidal- rydyn ni i gyd yn gyfarwydd â’r gwahaniaeth rhwng rhan ogleddol gyfoethog yr Eidal a rhan ddeheuol dlotach yr Eidal. Cefais brofiad uniongyrchol o broblemau rydyn ni’n eu hwynebu ym Mhrydain fel Cydlynydd archwiliad clwy’r traed a’r genau yn Senedd Ewrop. Teithiais ar draws llawer o wledydd yn Ewrop i weld beth oedd eu profiad, i weld beth ddigwyddodd, pam cafodd y clwy ei drin yn wael iawn mewn rhai rhannau o’i gymharu ag ardaloedd eraill. Pan es i i ogledd Lloegr gwelais y gwahaniaethau rhwng y trefniadau a oedd yn eu lle yn yr Alban i drin clwy’r traed a’r genau ac yn Northumberland. Roedd y gwahaniaeth rhwng Dumfries a Galloway, a oedd yn sir i’r gogledd o’r ffin, a Northumberland yn enfawr. Nawr roedd gennych chi gadwyn reoli ac atebolrwydd yn yr Alban. Roedd pobl yn gwybod beth roedden nhw’n ‘wneud. Yn is na’r ffin roedd hi’n llanast llwyr. Wrth gwrs mae rhaid i ni ofyn y cwestiwn yn y cyd-destun hwn, pam ar y ddaear nad oes gan Gynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’r pwer dros glwy’r traed a’r genau ac iechyd anifeiliaid? Pam mae un ffurf ar ddatganoli wedi’i chaniatáu ond nad yw hyn wedi digwydd yn y mater canolog hwn, sef iechyd anifeiliaid. Pan welwch chi enghraifft o’r fath a gweld y diffyg trefn a oedd yng Nghymru wrth geisio trin y clefyd hwn, a arweiniodd at filiynau a miliynau o bunnoedd o ddifrod trwy Gymru wledig, yna mae rhaid i chi ofyn beth yw diben cael Cynulliad oni bai bod gennych chi’r pwerau i ddelio â sefyllfa o’r fath yn fwy effeithiol. Wrth gwrs, rydyn ni’n gweld sefyllfa yn awr lle mae Cymru hefyd yn debyg o golli sedd yn y Senedd Ewropeaidd yn yr etholiadau Ewropeaidd nesaf. Pam mae gan Lwcsembwrg fwy o gynrychiolaeth, gyda’r un boblogaeth â Gwent? Pam mae ganddyn nhw fwy o gynrychiolaeth na Chymru. Pam mae gan Iwerddon 16 aelod yn Senedd Ewrop? Dim ond pump sy gennyn ni. Os ewch chi i unrhyw goridor ym Mrwsel fe welwch chi Wyddelod yno. Dyna wrth gwrs pam maen nhw’n gwneud mor dda yn y Senedd. Oherwydd bod ganddyn nhw bresenoldeb yno. O ran cymharu, cafwyd 136 secondiad o Loegr. Mae’r secondiadau hyn yn cynnwys pobl ifanc sy’n mynd i weithio yn y Comisiwn neu yn Senedd Ewrop, Canolfan Ewropeaidd Cymru neu UKREP(Cynrychiolaeth Llywodraeth y DU ym Mrwsel). Mae’r ffigur yn 136 o Loegr, mae 50 wedi eu secondio o’r Alban i weithio yn y Comisiwn a dim ond dau sydd wedi eu secondio yno o Gymru. Pam mae ein presenoldeb yn Senedd Ewrop ac a’r sefydliadau Ewropeaidd mor wan? Rwy’n awgrymu i chi os yw Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn wan yna dydyn ni ddim yn mynd i gael y presenoldeb angenrheidiol yn y coridorau grym yn Ewrop sy’n rhaid digwydd os ydyn ni am fyw bywyd llawn fel cenedl yn Ewrop.

Interpretation:

I will be quite brief because I'm not sure what the arrangements are here. Whether we actually present and then you ask questions. Plaid Cymru of course have outlined to you their views, concerns and their objectives and indeed, what they hope will happen as a consequence of the stronger form of devolution which we hope will occur. But I think the best thing for us in terms of comments is to present to you what we feel the way things are in Europe and the European Union, and to outline the dangers which we see that you have two levels of devolution emerging in Europe devolution which will happen legislatively and also financialy. These are powers, of course, that a number of the strong regions of Europe already have. There is no point in me outlining these here. I am sure you are familiar with the powers which 17 Parliaments of Lander in Germany have or the strong regions of Belgium or the Basque country or Catalonia. These are the regions which are part of the Parliamentary group which Jill Evans and I are Members of in the European Parliament and all the evidence which we hear now as a consequence of the discussion which you are familiar with and the Convention looking at the future of Europe. On the one hand you have regions with legislative powers and on the other hand regions which only have administrative powers. I think we need to be careful in discussing this separation which will happen in Europe because everyone is now talking about constitutional legislative regions and this is something which concerns me. It's of concern to all parties hopefully who believe in the powers for the National Assembly in Wales. You have those two levels emerging and Wales is losing out . I think this is quite central for me to mention at the beginning of this presentation and we must question why. What is the difference between Wales and the Basque country which pays money back to Madrid to look after its defence powers? What's the difference between Wales and Catalonia which spends £130m a year on its language and is succeeding in doing so ? What's the difference between Wales and Scotland, also which of course has legislative powers and financial powers which are much stronger than Wales has? Why should that be a difference between us and Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland has legislative powers. Now, this is complete nonsense that you would differentiate between the regional powers within the UK. This is of great concern to my party to see within the UK as a whole this variation in powers emerging and a variation in the economic powers, and the resultant variation in GDP within the UK now between London and South East England and the rest of the regions of Britain. According to statistics which I can show you from the European Commission, the regional disparity in the UK is 33 per cent –the worse regional disparity of all the European countries, worse than the disparity between north and south Italy - we're all familiar with the disparity between the rich northern part of Italy and the poorer southern part of Italy. I have had direct experience of problems that we're facing in Britain as Coordinator of the foot and mouth disease enquiry in the European Parliament. I travelled across many countries in Europe to see what their experience was, to see what happened, why the disease was handled very badly in some parts compared with other areas. When I went to northern England I saw the differences between the arrangements which were in place in Scotland to tackle foot and mouth disease and in Northumberland. The difference between Dumfries and Galloway, which was a county north of the border, and Northumberland was immense. Now you had chain of command and accountability in Scotland. People knew what they were doing. Below the border it was a complete mess. We must of course ask the question in this context, why on earth does the National Assembly of Wales not have the power over foot and mouth and animal health ? Why some form of devolution has been allowed but has not happened on this central issue, namely animal health. When you see such an example and see the lack of organisation which was in Wales in trying to tackle this disease, which has led to millions and millions of pounds of damage throughout rural Wales, then you must ask what is the point in having an Assembly unless you have the powers to deal with such a situation more effectively. Of course, we are seeing a situation now where Wales is also likely to lose a seat in the European Parliament at the next European elections. Why has Luxembourg more representation, with the same population as Gwent? Why do they have more representation than Wales? Why Ireland has 16 members in the European Parliament. We only have five. If you go to any corridor in Brussels you see Irish people there. That's of course why they are doing so well in the Parliament. Because they have that presence there. In comparison, 136 secondments have occurred from England. These secondments are of young people who go to work in the Commission or in the European Parliament the Wales European Centre or UKREP(The UK Government representation in Brussels) The figure is 136 for England , 50 have been seconded from Scotland to work in the Commission and only two have been seconded there from Wales. Why is our presence in the European Parliament and the European institutions so weak. I suggest to you that if the National Assembly for Wales is weak then we're not going to have the required presence in the corridors of power in Europe which must happen if we are to live a full life as a nation in Europe.

Ted Rowlands

Any representation of UKREP by any part isn't to do with the powers. It's to do with resource.

Eurig Wyn

Mae’r ffaith eich bod chi’n deall y byddai cael presenoldeb Cymreig cryf yn UKREP, yn y Comisiwn a’r gwahanol sefydliadau yn cryfhau braich cyfrifoldeb Cymru gyfan.

Interpretation:

The fact that you understand that having a strong Welsh presence in UKREP, in the Commission and the various institutions would strengthen the arm of influence of all Wales.

Ted Rowlands

It's to do with the resource. Nothing to do with the powers.

Eurig Wyn

Pam felly mae gennych chi fwy o Bobl o Gatalwnia, o Wlad y Basg, o Fflandrys mewn swyddfeydd yn gweithio ar ran eu rhanbarthau nag sydd gennych chi’n gweithio yno o Gymru? Mae hyn oherwydd eu bod yn darparu’r adnoddau ac nid yw Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’n gwneud hyn.

Interpretation

Why do you therefore have more people from Catalonia, from the Basque country, from Flanders in offices working on behalf of their regions than you have working there from Wales? It is because they provide the resources and the National Assembly for Wales does not.

Ted Rowlands

It's a question of resource.

Lord Richard

This is not how it used to be. It may have changed recently, when I was in the Commission we had people like Aneurin Rhys Hughes, Hywel Ceri Jones, Gwyn Morgan. There were quite a number of other Welsh people there. Wales was not underrepresented as part of the British contribution to the EEC.

Eurig Wyn

Wrth gwrs, ond yr hyn rwy’n ei ofyn i chi yw pam mae’r nifer o secondiadau o Gymru mor brin. Chewch chi ddim pobl fwy dylanwadol yn gweithio ym Mrwsel oni bai bod polisi cryf yn dod allan o Gymru i sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn arbennig yn cael eu lleoli yno. Rwy’n gorffen gyda hynny, Gadeirydd. Rwy’n credu fy mod i wedi ymdrin â’r maes â pheth manylder, rwy’n edrych ymlaen at dderbyn unrhyw gwestiynau a all fod gennych chi i’w holi. Ond rwy’n gobeithio’n fawr ein bod yn deall beth sy’n digwydd yn yr UE ac y gallai Cymru fod yn wan iawn yno o’i chymharu â rhanbarthau cryf eraill Ewrop a hynny yn amlwg sy’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Rwy’n gobeithio y bydd eich Comisiwn yn gallu edrych yn fanwl ar y broblem honno, a rhoi’r newidiadau angenrheidiol yn eu lle.

Interpretation:

Of course, but what I am asking you is why the number of secondments from Wales are so few. You won't get more influential people working in Brussels unless there is a strong policy emanating from Wales to ensure that young people in particular are located there. I conclude with that, Chairman. I believe that I have covered the field in some detail, I look forward to receiving any questions that you may have to ask. But I do very much hope that we understand what is happening in the EU and that Wales could be very weak there compared to other strong regions of Europe and that is obviously what is happening at present. I hope that your Commission will be able to look in depth at that problem, and put in place the required changes.

Lord Richard

Can I ask you a factual question about the groups that you belong to. There is a regional group. What's it called?

Jill Evans

The Green Parties across Europe and the European Free Alliance. We belong to the European Free Alliance (EFA) which is a group of regionalist and nationalist parties. There are nine EFA Members but we work in a larger group with the Green Parties.

Lord Richard

Which regions?

Jill Evans

Flanders, Scotland--- NEW SPEAKER: Flanders?

Jill Evans

Andalucia.

Eurig Wyn

Galicia, Basque country.

Lord Richard

There are the two of you but nine in the whole group?

Jill Evans

Two from the SNP in Scotland, then one from Flanders, one from each of the other regions.

Lord Richard

You are well represented in that group?

Jill Evans

Yes.

Lord Richard

What is the mechanical thing that you need in Europe which you haven't got in order to present Wales' case? What institutional difficulties do you have? Where are the gaps you think should be filled?

Jill Evans

Can I add something to what Eurig was saying about the confusion about Wales's status, because there is confusion. We have both previously been Members of the Committee of Regions and there is a lot of discussion about constitutional regions or legislative regions. It's never been clear whether Wales is classed as a legislative region or not because we have secondary legislation. But Eurig asked a question in the European Affairs Committee in the National Assembly, where the First Minister stated quite clearly that Wales was a legislative region. I put in a written question to the European Commission and they said they don't have any definitions of regions, it's up to the Members states to define them themselves.

Lord Richard

What about the Parliament? Is Wales recognised by the Parliament as a legislative region?

Jill Evans

They recognise whatever status the British Government recognises Wales. I mean they don't have a separate definition. In the Committee of the Regions Wales was a region. But we were certainly not recognised as being in the same league if you like as Catalonia and Flanders.

Lord Richard

What difference does that make?

Eurig Wyn

The difference is representation on important Committees there. I am sure if you made a survey of the number of times the Catalans and Basques and other stronger regions of Europe have been present, for example, at the Council of Ministers in comparison with Wales you would find that we're losing out. The only time we are represented there for example, Carwyn Jones has been there recently on the question of the foot and mouth disease, he was there. He represented us there. But you need to be there on a more constant basis than the one off appearance every now and then, everytime in fact when there are issues affecting Wales.

Lord Richard

Why? I ask the question because the way the Council, I have a little experience of this in the past, Council of Ministers you need to be there when you need to be there. You don't need to be there the whole time.

Eurig Wyn

What if you were to have on occasions an issue cropping up where there was no one there from the Wales, for example an issue might arise to do with the structural funding for Wales. It might arise not as part of an organised discussion there but it could crop up linked to other issues, then there would be no one from Wales there. If you wanted to argue the case I mean.

Lord Richard

I am interested in your views.

Eurig Wyn

My view is that we should be represented there far more regularly than what we are at the present moment in time.

Lord Richard

As part of a UK delegation?

Eurig Wyn

I think we should be there as free standing representatives from Wales.

Lord Richard

You're a different country, you're not recognised as a country by the European Union.

Eurig Wyn

If you were to have a stronger Assembly we would be moving in the right direction.

Vivienne Sugar

You say the Catalans have greater representation. How do they have more presence? How are they on more Committees when it's not because they are more MEPs?

Eurig Wyn

Because they have European Committees in Catalonia that discuss regularly European affairs, that discuss European legislation as indeed Scotland have. Scotland's European Affairs Committee of course meet far more regularly than we meet in Wales. I think we meet three or four times a year.

Vivienne Sugar

Stay on the presence in Europe---

Eurig Wyn

The reason that Scotland meet often is that they discuss the relevance between the little legislation that they pass in Scotland and European legislation. They meet every month. We meet three times a year.

Vivienne Sugar

Is it Ted's point that they are putting more resource into presence, that they have got more Civil Servants who are working in Europe. Is that the difference?

Eurig Wyn

That's one of the reasons but...

Ted Rowlands

On the legislative status what percentage of European decisions are now legislated in the National Assembly as opposed to the UK Parliament? It would be a majority now, wouldn't it? The majority of the environmental staff, in legislative terms. Is it not the case that the National Assembly now is the legislative body for European legislation as opposed to the UK Parliament?

Eurig Wyn

Ond faint o amser rydych chi’n ei gymryd i drafod deddfwriaeth? Y pwynt yw ei bod hi’n hawdd i chi ddweud bod gan Gymru bwerau deddfwriaethol ond mae’n broses hirwyntog iawn. Rwy’n siwr y byddech chi’n cytuno mynd i Lundain i drafod yn ddeddfwriaeth yn Llundain a phenderfynu a ydy’r hawl gan Gymru, yr hyn rwy’n ei olygu yw ei bod hi’n broses hir ac mae deddfwriaeth yn rhywbeth sy’n gweithio’n fwy effeithiol os yw’n digwydd yn gyflym.

Interpretation:

But how much time do you take to discuss legislation? The point is it's easy for you to say that Wales has legislative powers but it's a very long winded process. I am sure you would agree to go to London to discuss the legislation in London and to decide whether Wales has the right, I mean it's a lengthy process and legislation is something which is more effective if it happens swiftly.

Ted Rowlands

I am referring to European positions. Legislation that emanates from the European Parliament and the Council, the legislative processes for implementing that are now overwhelmingly carried out by the National Assembly rather than by the UK Parliament - in European terms is not the National Assembly a legislative body in a more meaningful way than the UK Parliament is? I mean, I don't know what percentage. I read the papers, I have read quite a lot of -- almost all of the environmental or agricultural legislation is legislated through the National Assembly and not through the European Parliament.

Eurig Wyn

I'm not sure whether that's right or not.

Jill Evans

It goes through the UK Parliament first.

Vivienne Sugar

We've had evidence that the Assembly does not have enough time to scrutinise all of the European stuff that's coming through.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

They have a Committee, but as you say it meets less often than the Scottish Committee but it's laid down in the White Paper that they have a particular remit to scrutinise European Union documents and proposals, to take evidence. As far as I am aware they have done very little of this. That's the evidence we have received. But in a sense the onus on improving this lies with the Assembly fair and square.

Jill Evans

We have been, as the five MEPs from Wales, members on that Committee. But it very often meets at times when we cannot attend, mid-week when we are Brussels or Strasbourg. When we have attended meetings at the Committee we’ve found that it has not provided the kind of guidance, if you like, that would be useful to us as Members of Parliament representing Wales on issues of policies or legislation. There have been many constraints on what we could discuss in the Committee. For example, in the early days of the Committee I asked for updates on the structural funds in Wales, for the implementation of structural funds to be put on the agenda and was told that was not within the remit of the Committee. That they couldn't discuss that.

Dr Laura McAllister

Why? Because it was Economic Development Committee rather than---

Jill Evans

Yes.

Dr Laura McAllister

I thought it was meant to be cross-cutting.

Jill Evans

I thought we could discuss anything that affected Wales and its relationship with Europe but in the following meeting Interreg was on the agenda so we discussed that. It was so inconsistent. It was not scrutinising legislation. What tended to happen, I must say I have not attended a meeting for some time because they are at inconvenient times, but what tended to happen was that we had reports of legislation that had gone through Parliament, rather than discussion on issues that were coming up so that we could actually speak on behalf of the Wales and be given leadership by the Assembly. The five of us then, on issues that are cross-party, which they very often are, could have taken the same line and spoken on behalf of Wales. That's been something that has been absent right from the start from '99 when we were elected. There has not been that kind of leadership. It's something that we have called for in our meetings earlier on with the Wales European Centre, for instance, because we do want to work together to speak as a voice for Wales but that was something that did not happen and certainly there is a very, very urgent need I would say for the Assembly to be looking at European legislation that is coming up. The Convention on the future of Europe, the draft constitution now makes provision for the member states to be consulted on legislation before it's published by the Commission. So they could have an input before the legislation actually comes to Parliament. It's vital that the Assembly is part of that process, that the Assembly is consulted as well because we have seen on a number of issues, particularly the environment, legislation has come through the UK Parliament but when it's come to the Assembly level and local government level the implementation has been extremely difficult.

Lord Richard

That's not the question of the powers of the Assembly, it's the question of the ways it does its job.

Jill Evans

It's whether the Assembly is proactive or not, I would say it has not been. If they had more powers it would certainly enable them to be more proactive.

Lord Richard

Might be just as listless with more powers.

Jill Evans

What we have seen with other regions is that they are there right at the beginning of the process, that they do make their presence felt, they are far more active.

Lord Richard

European institutions are quite often open, they will listen to representation wherever it comes.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Who's the Chairman of the Assembly of European Affairs?

Jill Evans

First Minister. Or at least he was in the last session.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

That could be criticised. You have the First Minister at a very high level but he doesn't have much time to do---

Huw Thomas

Ga i ofyn hefyd, roeddech chi Eurig yn siarad yn gynt am yr Alban, fe gafodd dyn yr argraff eich bod chi’n dweud bod eu Pwyllgor Ewropeaidd yn fodel o arfer da yno yn yr Alban. Allwch chi esbonio beth roedden nhw’n ei wneud y credwch chi y dylai Cymru ei wneud?

Interpretation:

May I also ask, you were talking earlier Eurig about Scotland, one got the impression that you were saying that their European Committee was a model of good practice there in Scotland. Could you explain what they are doing that you believe Wales should do?

 Eurig Wyn (In Welsh then interpreted)

 Fe esbonia i gydag enghraifft. Rwy’n cofio mynd i’r Alban o Senedd Ewrop i drafod mater yn ymwneud â gwaith corfflosgi a gafodd ei sefydlu gan Senedd yr Alban yn agos at ardal uchel ei phoblogaeth yn Glasgow a gwahoddwyd Aelodau o’r Pwyllgor Deisebau i fynd yno i weld beth oedd wedi digwydd ac i weld a oedd y ddeddfwriaeth bresennol yn yr Alban yn wan ac a oedd asesiad ar yr effaith amgylcheddol wedi ei gynnal yno a hefyd cawson ni drafodaethau yn Senedd yr Alban i weld sut y byddai deddfwriaeth Albanaidd yn gallu datblygu yn y dyfodol i fod yn fwy pwerus ac yn dynnach ar faterion yn ymwneud â’r amgylchedd, gan gynnwys gweithfeydd corfflosgi neu beth bynnag. Roedd y drafodaeth yn Senedd yr Alban felly’n un gadarnhaol iawn. Roedden nhw’n gallu trafod sut i gryfhau’r ddeddfwriaeth Albanaidd a nodi perthynas y ddeddfwriaeth honno i ddeddfwriaeth y mae Jill yn fwy cyfarwydd â hi na minnau am nad yw’r Pwyllgor Amgylchedd yn deddfwriaethu’n sylweddol mewn materion Ewropeaidd. Mae’r drafodaeth yn digwydd yn y Pwyllgorau Ewropeaidd, a fydd yn ymwneud â chryfhau neu newid deddfwriaeth Albanaidd mewn perthynas â deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd, oherwydd os ydych chi’n gorff deddfwriaethol yna o anghenraid byddwch chi’n ystyried deddfwriaeth Cymru neu ddeddfwriaeth yr Alban yng nghyd-destun deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd. Y pwynt rwy’n ei wneud yw y byddai’r pwerau deddfwriaethol hynny’n creu Cynulliad Cenedlaethol mwy cymwys a pherthnasol a byddai’n credu trafodaethau llawer mwy diddorol yn y Pwyllgorau nag a gewch chi yn y Cynulliad yn ei drafodion â deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd.

Interpretation:

I will explain by example. I remember going to Scotland from the European Parliament to discuss a matter involving an incineration plant that had been established by the Scottish Parliament close to a highly populated area in Glasgow and Members of the Petitions Committee in the Parliament were invited to go there to see what had occurred and to see whether the existing legislation in Scotland was weak and whether an environmental impact assessment had been carried out there and also we held discussions in the Scottish Parliament to see how in future Scottish legislation could be developed to be more powerful and tighter on subjects regarding the environment, including incineration plants or whatever. The discussion in the Scottish Parliament therefore were very positive . They were able to discuss how to strengthen the Scottish legislation and to relate that legislation to legislation that Jill is more familiar with than myself because the Environment Committee does legislate substantially in European matters. The discussion happens in European Committees, that will be involved with strengthening or amending Scottish legislation in relation to European legislation, because if you are a legislative body then of necessity you will be considering Welsh legislation or Scottish legislation in the context of European legislation. The point that I am making is that those legislative powers would create a more relevant pertinent National Assembly and would create much more interesting discussions in the Committees than you have in the Assembly in its dealings with European legislation.

Dr Laura McAllister

When you talk there about some of the other regions, they are a fairly disparate bunch. Lots of people have told us that Scotland has a clearer set of powers because of the nature of the settlement in the Scotland Act. Is there a sense in which the understanding of Wales' status I complicated by the way in which devolution occurred and the transfer of functions and so on? Is that a sense you pick up as well?

Eurig Wyn (In Welsh then interpreted)

Wel, rwy’n siwr eich bod chi’n iawn. Nid dyma’r math o Gynulliad y byddwn i wedi hoffi ei weld yng Nghymru. Nid dyna sy gennyn ni. Y broblem yn awr wrth gwrs yw fod gennych chi’r tir neb hwn yn y canol rhwng yr hyn sy’n gyfrifoldeb San Steffan a chyfrifoldeb i Gymru, mae diffyg dealltwriaeth a dadleuon yn digwydd yn aml rhwng Gweision Sifil. Bydd rhai ohonyn nhw efallai’n cynrychioli safbwynt Lloegr yn lle cynrychioli Cymru. Dyna’r wybodaeth a dderbynion ni ond mae hynny’n fater i Gynulliad Cymru yn hytrach nag i Senedd Ewrop.

Interpretation:

Well, I am sure that you are right. It's not the kind of Assembly that I would have liked to see in Wales. That's not what we have. The problem now is that of course you have this no man's land in the middle between what is the responsibility of Westminster and the responsibility for Wales, there is a lack of understanding and arguments frequently occur between Civil Servants. Some of them will perhaps represent London's point of view rather than representing Wales. That's the information we have received but that's a matter for the Assembly in Wales rather than the European Parliament.

Dr Laura McAllister

In terms of the European Free Alliance, what do your colleagues think about the Welsh settlement? Catalonia is a much more clear-cut constitutional arrangement. So when you describe what we have got in Wales does it strike them as being odd or interesting or anything that you can tell us about that?

Jill Evans

They think it's interesting, yes. But, yes, it's certainly more clear-cut in other countries. They discuss individual powers and how they can strengthen individual powers and which powers they want. It's a process that's happening across other regions in a very clear way. The sharing of powers between the state level and the regional level is very clear. I don't think we have seen these grey areas anywhere else really. I think that in terms of Scotland as well the difference between us and Scotland, Eurig has put it very well, is that they looked at their own legislation in terms of European legislation. They would do that automatically, but they also do that as a matter of course, they demand a voice on other bodies for example, the Convention on the future of Europe. Wales didn't have a representative on that even though we lobbied very hard, we lobbied the Assembly to try and get someone from the Assembly on the Committee of Regions to be a Member of the Convention. The reply that I had from the First Minister was that it was nothing to do with the Assembly. So we didn't have a representative.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Did Scotland have one?

Jill Evans

Yes. And Peter Hain was there representing the British Government.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Scotland had Neil MacCormick?

Jill Evans

Yes. We see this time after time. We are pushing for representation for Wales on different bodies and Committees but it should be the Assembly that is doing that. We see that other regions, legislative regions in Europe see the opportunity for promoting themselves on a European level but we don't. The Assembly does not.

Peter Price

I would like to come back to constitutional issues and the particular point about the status. When you drew a considerable distinction between the legislative powers, regions and those who have purely administrative powers. You said that has been raised in the convention. To the best of my recollection there is not anything in the proposed Constitution that would draw any distinction of that sort although there were various discussions. Are you able to cite any article of the proposed Constitution that would draw any distinction of any kind into terms of the regions of Europe participating in the Commission, in the Council or the European Parliament?

Eurig Wyn

Mae’n anodd, dydw i ddim wedi dod â dogfen fanwl, argymhellion yn unig ydyn nhw wrth gwrs, dim ond ar ffurf argymhelliad mae’r Confensiwn ar hyn o bryd. Maen nhw o hyd yn trafod hynny. Ond y pwynt rwy’n ei wneud yn syml iawn yw bod y peryglon, y risgiau pe bai datganoli’n digwydd fel ffactor canolog yn yr hyn sy’n cael ei benderfynu yn y pen draw gan y Confensiwn, yna mae’n dilyn y bydd y rhanbarthau hynny sydd â deddfwriaeth a phwerau deddfwriaethol ac ariannol llawn yn mynd i fod mewn sefyllfa lawer cryfach na Chymru. Pe baech chi, neu’r Confensiwn yn gallu fy modloni’n wirioneddol y byddai Cymru heb unrhyw bwerau deddfwriaethol a chyllidol yn derbyn mewn gwirionedd yr un driniaeth gyfartal â’r rhanbarthau eraill yna byddwn i’n gadael fan hyn yn ddyn hapus iawn. Ond dw i ddim yn credu mai dyna fydd y sefyllfa. Rwy’n credu yn raddol nid yn yr hyn sy’n mynd i gael ei benderfynu yn y Confensiwn hwn, ond fel welwch chi sefyllfa’n datblygu lle y bydd datganoli pwerau’n dod yn llawer mwy pwysig yn y dyfodol ac mewn gwirionedd bydd dimensiwn y gwledydd bach yn dod yn fwy pwysig. Mae’r hyn ddigwyddodd wrth gwrs yn Iwerddon gyda’u protest yn erbyn cytundeb Nice yn enghraifft dda iawn o’r dylanwad y gall cenhedloedd bach ei gael ar y ffordd y mae Ewrop yn datblygu. Rwy’n credu eich bod chi’n mynd i weld cynnydd yn y broses honno yn y dyfodol wrth i chi gael aelodau newydd o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd o Gyprus a Malta, Latfia, Estonia fod dimensiwn, y dimensiwn o warchod a diogelu’r cenhedloedd bach yn mynd i ddod yn fwyfwy pwysig fel elfen o’r ffordd y bydd Ewrop yn datblygu. Rwy’n awgrymu yn y broses honno y bydd Estonia a Seneddau Länder yr Almaen mewn sefyllfa gryfach na Chymru.

It's difficult to, I haven't brought a detailed document with me, they are solely recommendations of course, the Convention is just in recommendation form at present. They are still discussing that. But the point I am making very simply is that the dangers, the risks that if subsidiary were to develop as a central factor in what is being determined ultimately by the Convention, then it stands to reason that those regions that have legislative and full legislative and pecuniary powers are going to be in a much stronger position than Wales. If you, or if the Convention could actually put my mind to rest that Wales without any legislation and financial powers would actually receive the same equitable treatment as the other regions then I would leave here a very happy man. But I do not believe that will be the position. I think that gradually perhaps not in what's going to be decided in this Convention, but you will see a position develop where the devolution of powers will become much more important in future and in fact the smaller nations dimension will become more important. What occurred of course in Ireland with their protest against the Nice treaty is a very good example the influence small nations can have on the way in which Europe develops. I think that you are going to see an increase in that process in future as you get the new members of the European Union from Cyprus and Malta, Latvia, Estonia that dimension, the dimension of safeguarding and protecting the smaller nations is going to become increasingly more important as an element of the way Europe will develop. I am suggesting that in that process Estonia and the Lander Parliament of Germany will be in a stronger position than Wales.

Peter Price

It's not within the competence of this Commission to recommend that Wales be a Member State and therefore exercise the powers of a Member State. So I want to come back to the constitutional status within the existing position of Wales either having an Assembly with secondary legislative powers or with primary legislative powers and see whether that makes any difference in the way that it can, in a formal sense, participate in any of the European institutions. Now there is no distinction in the European Parliament. There is no distinction in the European Commission. There is no distinction in the Council of Ministers. As far as I am aware there is no such distinction in the Committee of the Regions. You have both been members of Committee of the Regions. Can you tell us is any such distinction drawn in the Committee of the Regions between Members coming from regions which have primary legislative powers and those that have merely secondary legislative powers? If so what is that distinction?

Eurig Wyn (In Welsh then interpreted)

Dydw i ddim yn credu bod hynny’n gymhariaeth deg iawn, oherwydd er enghraifft dydw i ddim yn credu bod Pwyllgor y Rhanbarthau, er y gall fod yn ddymunol iawn ei weld yn un o’r sefydliadau Ewropeaidd, nid yw pwerau Pwyllgor y Rhanbarthau’n ddigon cryf fel y maent ac mae hyn yn un o’r elfennau rydyn ni wedi eu cyflwyno fel dystiolaeth i’r Confensiwn. Y cyfan rydw i’n ei ddweud wrthych chi yw os ydych ci am i ddeddfwriaeth olygu rhywbeth yn Senedd Ewrop ac os yw Pwyllgor y Rhanbarthau rydych chi wedi sôn amdano’n mynd i fod yn rhan o ddatblygu’r ddeddfwriaeth honno, rydw i’n credu y cewch chi lawer mwy o obaith i hynny ddigwydd os caiff Rhanbarth Ymreolus Catalwnia a Seneddau Länder yr Almaen sydd â phwerau deddfwriaethol yn barod chwarae rôl amlwg yn y math o newidiadau deddfwriaethol angenrheidiol i ranbarthau Ewrop. Beth sy’n bod ar roi pwerau rhanbarthol i Gymru? Beth yw’r gwahaniaeth? Rwy’n gofyn y cwestiwn yn syml iawn: beth yw’r gwahaniaeth rhwng bod Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru’n eistedd ac yn penderfynu ar ddeddfwriaeth a bod y Catalwniaid yn gwneud hyn? Rwy’n gofyn y cwestiwn hwn i chi oherwydd fy mod i’n sicr fod y Catalwniaid yn cael trafodaethau llawer mwy diddorol ar ddyfodol eu cenedl na’r trafodaethau presennol maen nhw’n eu cael i lawr yno ym Mae Caerdydd.

I don't believe that that is a very fair comparison, because for example I don't believe that the Committee of the Regions, notwithstanding whether it's very pleasant to see it in as one of the European institutions, the powers of the Committee of the Regions are not strong enough as they stand and that is one of the elements that we have submitted as evidence to the Convention. All I am telling you is that if you want legislation to mean something in the European Parliament and if the Committee of the Regions that you mentioned is going to be part of developing that legislation, I think that you will have much more hope for that to happen if the Catalan Autonomous Region and the German Lander Parliaments that have legislative powers already are allowed to play a prominent role in the kind of legislative changes required for the European regions. What is wrong with giving regional powers to Wales? What's the difference. I am asking the question very simply: what is the difference between the National Assembly for Wales sitting down and deciding on legislation and the Catalans doing it? I am asking you that question because I am certain that the Catalans have much more interesting discussions onthe future of their nation than the present discussions they have down in Cardiff Bay.

Jill Evans

Ga i ychwanegu at hynny oherwydd eich bod chi’n iawn, does dim gwahaniaeth yn y cyfansoddiad drafft newydd. Does dim gwahaniaeth yn y Senedd nac yn y Cyngor Gweinidogion rhwng y rhanbarthau, y rhai sy’n llai pwerus neu’n fwy pwerus. Ond fe gafwyd ymdrechion i wneud y gwahaniaeth hwnnw yn y trafodaethau cynnar ond methodd hynny. Ond ym Mhwyllgor y Rhanbarthau hefyd cafwyd ymdrechion pan oedden ni’n Aelodau i gael sefyllfa ddwy siambr, i gael dwy siambr o’r Pwyllgorau, rhai o’r rhanbarthau â phwerau deddfwriaethol i fod mewn un categori a’r rhanbarthau eraill i fod mewn categori gwahanol. Dydy hyn ddim wedi digwydd. Fe godwyd hyn oherwydd wrth i’r rhanbarthau yn yr Almaen neu Fflandrys neu Sbaen ddatblygu maen nhw’n eu gweld eu hunain yn wahanol i lefydd fel Cymru, maen nhw am fod mewn categori gwahanol i ninnau. Felly, mae hyn yn mynd i ddigwydd yn barhaus, ond bai ein bod ni’n cael mwy o bwerau fyddwn ni ddim yn gallu delio ar lefel Ewropeaidd â’r Senedd neu Bwyllgor y Rhanbarthau yn yr un modd. Dyw’r un dylanwad ddim gennyn ni.

Interpretation:

May I add to that because you are right, there is no distinction in the new draft constitution. There is no distinction in the Parliament or in the Council of Ministers between the regions, those who are less powerful or more powerful. But there have been attempts to make that distinction in the early discussions but that failed. But in the Committee of the Regions also there were attempts made when we were Members to have a bicameral situation, to have two chambers of the Committees, some of the regions with legislative powers to be in one category and the other regions to be in a different category. That has not occurred. It is mooted because as the regions in Germany or Flanders or Spain develop they view themselves as being different to places such as Wales, they want to be in a different category to ourselves. Therefore, that is going to happen repeatedly, unless we have more powers we won't be able to deal on a European level with the Parliament or the Committee of the Regions in the same manner. We haven't the same influence.

 Ted Rowlands

I follow the point that you are on the Environmental Committee of the European Parliament and large or substantial part of European legislation is legislation covering UK, Wales and all parts thereof. Tell us about this process because I'd like to know about the process. A proposal is put forward by the European Commission or environmental side. Then the UK Government which will be consulting the National Assembly and will have Ministers from there will be taking what the UK position is going to be on that. Is that right?

Jill Evans

Yes.

Ted Rowlands

Those views come through to the Commission and to the Council and then also to the European Parliament when it considers the legislation, so there is a Welsh input equal that of Scotland or Northern Ireland in terms of the development of the UK attitude to that piece of European legislation?

Jill Evans

No. What we get as Members of Parliament is a briefing from the UK representation of the UK position. Not a Welsh position.

Ted Rowlands

The Assembly will have at ministerial level and official level would be feeding in their views about that piece of legislation to the UK Government and from the UK Government to UKREP or something?

Jill Evans

It doesn't reach us. We don't get a Welsh position.

Ted Rowlands

The National Assembly, Members, officials or Ministers don't say to the MEPs: look this is our view on this particular bit of legislation?

Jill Evans

No.

Ted Rowlands

On the environmental.

Peter Price

Never?

Ted Rowlands

That's not a matter of powers, it's a matter of process.

Jill Evans

The fact that we get the UK briefing and not any separate Welsh or Scotland, I don't know about Scotland, separate Welsh perspective, I think is to do with that because it's a matter of status, isn't it?

Ted Rowlands

No, it's not.

Jill Evans

The UK Government take one position on the Council of Ministers and that's the UK line.

Ted Rowlands

Because when you eventually pass that European legislation, in the environmental field the legislation required to make it work and to do it in various forms and the way it is applied in the UK is now increasingly, if not in the majority, by the Assembly with its legislative powers. All this environmental European legislation is translated into domestic legislation and done through secondary legislation which is now the exclusive right of the National Assembly.

Jill Evans

Can I give you an example of a recent issue where the position of the UK Government and the Assembly was quite different, that of GM crops. We have had several pieces of legislation on that. The view of the Assembly on that is quite clear. They said that they wanted Wales to be GM free, they brought in measures which were subsequently overturned by the Commission, to separate GM crops and conventional crops for instance. We have been discussing several pieces of legislation on GM labelling and traceable movements and the only briefing that we have had and the only representations we have had have been from the UK Government which was very much against the labelling and traceability legislation, very pro-GM, if you like, and pro the development of the technology and the support for the development of the technology. Quite clearly different from the line that the Assembly Members had taken, I think unanimously a year or two ago. We had no representation from the Assembly about the position of Wales with regard---

Ted Rowlands

Did you ask them: tell us what you think? Did you contact them?

Jill Evans

Obviously I am in contact with our own Members of the National Assembly. I also get information from other sources and I have been, not recently but in the past, in correspondence with the Minister responsible for agriculture.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

The important thing is to do it beforehand. Because once it is agreed then it's a question of implementation. But if you can say on this issue, for example, of GM crops beforehand and the Assembly is in a position to do this, if they so choose. The earlier you get in the more effective you can be. The relevance for that is not primary powers, it's getting the European scrutiny process properly done on a very small minority of EU positions which are of real interest to Wales but within the Assembly. That's what I would put to you.

Eurig Wyn

Cyn y gallwch chi wneud hynny rwy’n credu cyn i chi gyrraedd y pwynt hwnnw mae’n rhaid i chi gael corff o weision sifil yng Nghymru sydd â’r gallu a’r profiad a’r hyfforddiant i ddelio â’r ddeddfwriaeth. Mae hyn yn wendid ar hyd. Oherwydd pan oedd y ddau ohonon ni’n Aelodau o Bwyllgor y Rhanbarthau roedd y briffiau a dderbynnid ar ddeddfwriaeth yn dod o Lundain o’r LGIB. Mae’n rhaid chi gyrraedd pwynt neu sefyllfa yng Nghymru lle rydych chi’n creu craidd o Weision Sifil ac yn sefydlu coleg yng Nghymru yn hyfforddi ac yn rhoi disgyblaeth i bobl ynglyn â deddfwriaeth Gymreig a pherthnasedd deddfwriaeth Ewropeaidd. Hynny yw, rwy’n dychwelyd at y pwynt a wnes am amaethyddiaeth a’r ffaith nad yw’r pwerau iechyd wedi eu datganoli i Gymru. Mae hyn yn enghraifft bwysig iawn oherwydd os ydyn ni am fod yn rhagweithiol mae angen i’r pwerau deddfwriaethol hynny fod yn eu lle ar iechyd anifeiliaid, neu unrhyw beth arall er mwyn osgoi’r problemau a ddigwyddodd gydag argyfwng clwy’r traed a’r genau. Rwy’n credu y gallech chi weld mwy o hyn yn digwydd yn y dyfodol os caiff pwerau iechyd anifeiliaid eu cryfhau.

Before you can do that I think that before you arrive at that point you have to have a body of civil servants in Wales that have the ability and the experience and training to deal with the legislation. That is a weakness at present. Because when the two of us were Members of the Committee of Regions the briefings that were received regarding legislation came from London from the LGIB. You must reach a point or situation in Wales where you create a core of Civil Servants and establish a college in Wales training and disciplining people as regards Welsh legislation and the relevance of European legislation. I mean, I return to the point that I made about agriculture and the fact that the health powers had not been devolved to Wales. That is a very important example because if we are to be proactive we need those legislative powers in place on animal health, or anything else in order to avoid the problems that occurred with the foot and mouth crisis. I think you could see more of this happening in future animal health powers were strengthened.

Vivienne Sugar

Two questions about the current arrangements. You described the arrangements for liaison with the Assembly and the Assembly Members and you have been critical of them. Can you tell us what arrangements there are for liaison with Welsh MPs? Then the second question is that we had had a lot of evidence suggesting that Wales is over governed. Can you tell us whether you have any protocols with MPs and AMs about how you handle representation from your constituencies.

Jill Evans

I think the answer would be no to all the questions. There are no formal channels by which we liaise with Welsh MPs. Obviously within our own party we have bodies. But generally there is not any kind of structure and similarly there is no protocol for dealing with the constituencies or visiting constituencies. Our constituency is Wales. So if there was some kind of protocol as with the Westminster MPs then it would mean quite a lot of administrative work for us because any time we went anywhere in Wales we would have to be in touch with the MPs or the AMs.

Eurig Wyn

I ateb ail ran eich cwestiwn, a oes perygl y bydd gennym ni orlywodraethu yng Nghymru, Nghymru, gormod o Lywodraeth. Rwy’n credu bod gennych chi nifer o enghreifftiau ar draws Ewrop lle caiff pobl eu cynrychioli’n fwy effeithiol am fod mwy o atebolrwydd iddyn nhw, er enghraifft, mae Gwlad Belg yn enghraifft ardderchog o hynny lle mae gennych chi gynifer o wahanol Seneddau a chynifer o wahanol haenau o Lywodraeth yno nes y gall hi ymddangos yn ddryslyd. Ond os gall pobl gael atebolrwydd a derbyn atebion a theimlo y bydd y Senedd, a dyna rydyn ni’n gobeithio y bydd y Cynulliad yn gallu bod, yn fwy perthnasol i’w dyfodol ac i’r materion maen nhw am ddod â nhw gerbron y Cynulliad a nhw’u hunain, yna rydw i’n gwirioneddol gredu y cewch chi fwy o ddiddordeb o blith pobl Cymru yn y Cynulliad ac y bydd mwy o bobl yn pleidleisio. Dyna’r broblem rydyn ni’n sicr yn ei chael oherwydd diffyg cynrychiolaeth o nifer y Cymry sy’n pleidleisio am y Cynulliad oherwydd dydyn nhw ddim yn teimlo bod y Cynulliad yn berthnasol i’w bywyd. Yn awr gallwch chi alw hyn yn fiwrocratiaeth neu’n orlywodraethu. Ond os yw’r bobl ar y stryd yn teimlo bod y Cynulliad yn fwy perthnasol i’r hyn sy’n bwysig iddyn nhw yna rydw i’n credu bod angen i ni dalu am y ddemocratiaeth honno neu dim ond siop siarad fydd e.

Interpretation:

To answer the second part of your question, is there a risk that we will have excessive governance in Wales, over Government. I think that you have a number of examples across Europe where people are represented more effectively because there is more accountability for them, for example, Belgium is an excellent example of that where you have so many different Parliaments and so many different tiers of Government there that it can appear confusing. But if people can get accountability and receive answers and feel that the Parliament, and that is what we hope the Assembly would be able to be, will be more relevant to their futures and to the issues that they wish to bring before the Assembly and themselves, then I do believe truly that you will have a greater interest from amongst the people of Wales in the Assembly and that more people will vote. That's the problem that we are finding definitely because of the lack of representation from the number of Welsh people voting for the Assembly because they don't feel the Assembly is relevant to their lives. Now then you may call it bureaucracy or over governance. But if people out on the street feel that the Assembly is more relevant to what is important to them then I believe that we need to pay for that democracy or it will be just be a talking shop.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

I wonder if you saw a recent article in the FT about the Convention? Did you see it?

Jill Evans

No.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

The guts of it is, he says that the great danger is that democratic political cultures may be weakened where they exist, that is in the nation states, without being replaced at any other levels. That's his argument. I just wondered whether you had any comments on what I think is a very perceptive view of what is happening in the whole convention/Council Ministers process?

Jill Evans

The Member States are being weakened you mean?

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Yes. In the box there.

Jill Evans

Well, I don't agree. No. I think what we have seen with the Convention is the strengthening of the status of Member States. What we hoped to see was a much greater role being given to the regional level of Government. We don't have that. What we have is an acknowledgement of the regional level of Government but no powers, no particular role has been given to that level of Government. It consolidates that power lies with the Member States. I don't think that it weakens them at all. The fact that the powers of the European Parliament have been increased is a very welcome move in that it doubled the number of issues on which the Parliament have co-decision with the Council, for instance. There are issues such as the recognition of the need to support and protect minority languages, cultures, cultural diversity which are very important to us in Wales. But I think on the whole the structure that is proposed is very much the same as the one we have now and that is a danger for the new Member States, the smaller Member States. There will be six Member States by 2004 that will be smaller in population terms than Wales but will have full Member State status. But they are having to fight really to keep the same number of powers as the larger, older Member States have. So I think that we could see that kind of split, where the smaller countries lose out to the larger countries which dominate the Commission and the whole structure. But I don't see any weakening of the Members States.

Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much indeed for coming. You put your case clearly. Unmistakably. Much obliged to you.

 Supplementary submission to support evidence given in oral session

Wales’s representation in the EU

Before final decisions are made at a Ministerial level the day to day work of the Council of Ministers is carried out in the Permanent Representatives Committees (known as Coreper). These bodies are made up of civil servants in delegations from each member state and they debates the details of proposals and draft legislation before the main Council meetings. It is therefore a very important body and many crucial decisions are made at this stage.

At present Wales is not directly represented in Coreper (although there have been occasions where a Welsh Assembly Government official has been present for the Special Agriculture Committee (SCA) which has similar status to Coreper) and there is no Wales member on the UK delegation.

In contrast the Belgian regions of Flanders and Wallonia form the Belgium delegation at Coreper for the policy domains that fall within their remit. They are therefore, between them, directly represented and responsible for Belgian policy making in the Councils for Competitiveness, Employment, Health, Transport, Agriculture, Fisheries, Environment, Education, Culture and Youth. It is also the regions’ Ministers that represent Belgium in the Council of Ministers when it makes decisions relevant to its powers and they are authorized to commit the state to decisions in those circumstances.

In the case of Germany as well the Länder have a well developed and clearly defined situation of regional representation in EU decision-making, including in Coreper and Council meetings.

 Jill Evans MEP & Eurig Wyn MEP