COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

EVIDENCE OF:

Delyth Evans

held at

Caradog House, Cardiff

On

FRIDAY 11 JULY 2003

In Attendance

Lord Richard
Eira Davies
Vivienne Sugar
Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth
Tom Jones
Huw Thomas
Ted Rowlands
Dr Laura McAllister
Peter Price
Delyth Evans

Proceedings

Lord Richard

Good morning.

Delyth Evans

Good morning.

(In Welsh then interpreted)

Ga i ddiolch ichi am y gwahoddiad i roi tystiolaeth ac roeddwn i wedi bwriadu paratoi tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig pan oeddwn i'n Aelod o'r Cynulliad ond oherwydd pwysau'r gwaith ches i ddim amser i wneud hynny. Efallai yr â i yn ôl ato yn nes ymlaen. Rwy'n credu bod y drafodaeth yma ar bwerau a threfniadau'r Cynulliad yn bwysig ac yn amserol ac rwy'n croesawu cyfraniad y Comisiwn at y drafodaeth a hoffwn ganmol y ffordd ddiwyd a thrylwyr rydych chi'n gwneud y gwaith. Does dim atebion syml i'r cwestiynau sydd ger eich bron. Mae'n glir nad yw'r trefniadau sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd yn berffaith ac mae'n glir hefyd bod lle i wella. Yn gyffredinol, mae busnes llywodraethu Cymru wedi gwella cryn dipyn ers datganoli ac ryn ni'n gallu ymateb yn llawer mwy effeithiol i anghenion Cymru nag o'r blaen ac wrth i broses datganoli barhau ac rwy'n hyderus y bydd yn parhau dros gyfnod o amser. Rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig ein bod yn symud ymlaen gyda gofal, yn ofalus ac mewn ffordd sy'n cyd-fynd â disgwyliadau a dyheadau'r mwyafrif o'n cyd-Gymry. Diolch.

Interpretation:

May I thank you for the invitation to give evidence and I had intended to prepare written evidence when I was an Assembly Member but due to pressure of work I didn't find the time to do so. Perhaps I will return to that later on. I think this discussion regarding the Assembly's powers and arrangements is an important and timely one and I welcome the Commission's contribution to that discussion and I commend the very diligent and thorough way in which you are undertaking the work. There are not any simple solutions to the issues before you. It is clear that the arrangements that we have at present are not perfect and its also clear that there is scope for improvement. Generally the business of the governance of Wales has improved quite a bit since devolution and we are able to react much more effectively to the needs of Wales than we were able to do so previously and as the devolution process continues and I am confident that it will continue over a period of time. I think it is important that we proceed with caution, with care and in a way which is in accordance with the expectation and aspirations of the majority of our fellow Welsh people. Thank you.

Lord Richard

Thank you for that. Can I start on a rather different tack. Can you help us about the workloads of the AM? How much time it takes and what you do? You were in for the four years. Big constituency. How much time did you actually spend on Assembly affairs?

Delyth Evans

I worked hard, I think most Assembly Members do work hard and I worked in a very focused way because I was keen to keep my working time within working hours of the Assembly. I tried to limit the amount I did at weekends but because I was covering a very large constituency this was inevitably an awful lot of travel around Mid and West Wales, particularly on a Friday and sometimes on a Saturday. I was also a Deputy Minister. So that was also quite a lot of work. However, as a Regional Member, as opposed to a constituency Member, I think, I assume that my constituency correspondence was quite a lot lighter than I expect---

Lord Richard

Give us an impression of how much you got, casework? How many letters a week?

Delyth Evans

It varied actually. Its hard to say. Sometimes ten letters a week, 20, quite a lot less I imagine than a lot of constituency AMs. Although often people would come to me as a last resort after failing elsewhere. I think I spent quite a lot of time pursuing matters that were often very difficult to help people with. In terms of the volume I am sure it was a lot less.

Lord Richard

The travelling that you had to do in your area. That was to hold meetings? Address people?

Delyth Evans

Yes, I'd get lots of invitation to meet people, meet organisations, visit schools, hospitals. I turned an awful lot down because it was impossible to do all of them. There were all party meetings that I had to attend. As a Member representing Mid and West Wales that includes 8 Parliamentary constituencies. All of those Labour Party constituencies wanted a bit of me as often as possible. I would be called upon in Pembrokeshire and also Montgomery.

Lord Richard

How much of your time was devoted to that constituency business as compared with the sitting in the Assembly and actually doing Assembly business?

Delyth Evans

It was governed by the physical needs to be in the Assembly really. So when I had to be in the Assembly because of Committees or Plenary that would govern the amount of time.

Lord Richard

How much did you have to spend in the Assembly? There is Plenary two days a week.

Delyth Evans

Yes, although I was always there on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday because we changed the Plenary dates during the term. I was often there on a Monday because of Deputy Ministerial meetings with Ministers. So the Friday was the day that I would keep clear for the constituency. But sometimes I would be in constituency on Monday, occasionally I could get somewhere like Llanelli or Carmarthen on a Monday afternoon. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday I would be in the Assembly. I was also a Member of five Committees at one stage.

Lord Richard

Tell us about that. How often did they meet?

Delyth Evans

They varied, the two Subjects Committees that I was a Member of met fortnightly. That meant I had a Committee meeting every week, Culture would meet one week and Rural Affairs the next week. I was also a Member of the Mid Wales Committee. I chaired that Committee at one stage and being the only Labour Member of the Mid Wales Committee I felt I had to attend one of those meetings which met twice a term. I was also a Member of the Business Partnership Council for a time. I was also a on the Legislation Committee for a time, which met on Thursday morning. I also often subbed on other Committees when other Members could not be there. Because I was Deputy Environment Minister I had to stand in for Sue Essex on the Environment Committee occasionally.

Dr Laura McAllister

Was that so onerous because you were the only Labour list AM without a constituency as such? Is that the realistic reason, you seem to have a pretty heavy load?

Delyth Evans

That only applied to the Regional Mid Wales Committee where I was the only Labour Member. But the work of that Committee is not onerous. Its a bit more demanding when you Chair it. It was more physically getting there and being there that was onerous. You didn't -- it didn't involve much preparation other than reading papers. The difficulty with a Subject Committee's and the other Committees was that I think the work of the Committees in the Assembly's is very important, particularly for back benchers but also for the way that the Assembly works. It is quite difficult to keep abreast of all of the issues relating to that particular subject. If you have got a number of Committees that you have to be on it's difficult to keep across all of the Rural Affairs issues and the whole of the Culture agenda in a way that I felt very happy with. I was sort of struggling to keep up with everything.

Vivienne Sugar

What personal support you did you have in terms of people preparing papers for you and diary management and just making the most effective use of your time?

Delyth Evans

I had a full-time researcher who worked with me in my Assembly office. Chris was responsible for my diary and for papers and any research I needed. I had a part-time secretary in my constituency office in Llanelli who dealt with constituency casework. But I didn't really ask Chris to prepare papers for me in addition to the papers that were prepared by the secretariat because it would be too much to read and he was too busy doing other things.

Lord Richard

What about your ministerial duties? What percentage of your time do you think was occupied by being Deputy Minister?

Delyth Evans

Up to about a third. It depended what was happening. At one time the Culture Committee conducted a review of the Welsh language policy and I played a fairly prominent role in that review. With the support of the Minister, obviously. With encouragement of the Minister, so that took up a lot of time. There were other times where there were specific things happened. I Chaired a task and finish group for the Minister on the publishing industry in Wales which took up a lot of time. It did vary but.

Lord Richard

As a Deputy Minister did you go to the Ministry daily?

Delyth Evans

No. It was a very kind of informal, slightly strange position. It's not like being Deputy Minister in Westminster.

Ted Rowlands

Were you bound by collective responsibility - could you have been an independent, could you have said something differently or did you feel bound by the collective Ministerial responsibility?

Delyth Evans

You are sort of semi-detached from the Government. You are not a Member of the Government. It's changed now. Rhodri tried to bring the Deputies more into the Government. They are given official support now, which we didn't have. You are half in and half out. You are supposed to abide by collective responsibility, although there were some times problems with that because the Deputies were not always entirely amenable to that. What was decided in the end was that you had to toe the line on your own portfolios but you were able to speak a little bit more freely on other people's portfolios.

Lord Richard

Do you think it was a good idea you were able to be a Member of the Committee?

Delyth Evans

And being a Deputy? Yes, I do actually because it's a much more informal structure than Westminster and the Committee's are very organic bodies. Because they are very small every Member has to play, or is expected to play a very significant role. So I didn't have any difficulty taking my hat off or putting it back on again and contributing in that way. That was understood. Occasionally the other parts would make an issue about it, but it was generally understood that's how it worked. People were reasonably happy with it. I quite liked that. I felt that I was able to contribute as an ordinary Member of the Committee but when I was there in a Ministerial capacity I was able to put on a different hat. That worked. It's the only way you can too it when you have got a small number of Members because if you took another four deputies out of the back bench role I'm not sure the system would be able to cope with that. So I had to be able to be a back bencher in the Committees and it was a role that I enjoyed.

Lord Richard

As we have gone round the meetings listening to people, it happened last night in the meeting in Cardiff, lots of people said "we don't believe they work". 60 is more than enough. Cut it down to 40. We have been vaguely trying to work out what the load is on say a back bench AM. In terms of the amount of time the Assembly sits at the moment, and the amount of time an AM has to be there, it seems the hours are not really great.

Delyth Evans

You have to be there, I have to be there on a Tuesday morning because we have a Labour group meeting. That was also the time when you try and have other sort of group pre-Committee type meetings. You have to be there on a Tuesday afternoon because of Plenary, have to be there on Wednesday morning or afternoon because of Committee. Wednesday afternoon because of Plenary and Thursday morning for a Committee. There were two and a half days when one had to be there.

Lord Richard

Two and a half days?

Delyth Evans

Two and a half full days, yes, but then as a Deputy Minister I had to be there---

Lord Richard

Trying to look at it from the point of view of the back bench AM. Load is only two and a half days a week. Some people would say they are not working hard enough. They should make greater efforts as back benchers. If you did you could spread the load.

Delyth Evans

I was the never able to work out why there the work seemed to be quite as hard as it was. Not necessarily intellectually hard but time consuming.

Lord Richard

Lot of paper?

Delyth Evans

A lot of meetings. Meeting organisations, Committee related meetings. It was often very difficult in a week. If I asked my researcher to fit in an additional meeting during the week it was sometimes quite difficult to do that.

Lord Richard

On a two and a half day basis?

Delyth Evans

Yes, although that does make it sound rather a short time commitment in the Assembly, but that must be right, yes.

Huw Thomas (In Welsh then interpreted)

Ga i fynd nôl? Rydych chi'n dweud bod dau Bwyllgor yr wythnos. Oedd gwaith y Pwyllgor yn waith oedd yn codi o ddyheadau Aelodau'r Pwyllgor neu oedd hi'n wir mai ymarfer gwthio papur oedd y system mewn gwirionedd a'ch bod chi'n boddi o dano?

Interpretation:

Can I go back. You mention that there are two Committees a week. Was the Committee work work that actually arose from the aspirations of the Committee Members or was it a fact that the system was actually a paper pushing exercise and that you were drowning in that?

Delyth Evans (In Welsh then interpreted)

Wel, mae'r elfen o graffu yng ngwaith y Pwyllgor yn bwysig iawn ac mae wedi gwneud gwahaniaeth yn y ffordd roedd llawer o'r cyrff cyhoeddus yn gweithio yng Nghymru am eu bod nhw'n ymwybodol eu bod yn atebol i'r Cynulliad ac maen nhw'n paratoi yn fanwl iawn i wneud cyflwyniadau i'r Pwyllgorau. Felly, roedd gwaith craffu y Pwyllgorau yn bwysig ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n rhan hanfodol o waith y Pwyllgorau am ei fod yn gwneud gwahaniaeth i'r ffordd y mae'r cyrff cyhoeddus yn gweithio yng Nghymru.

Interpretation:

Well, the scrutiny element of the Committee is very important and that has made a difference in the way that many of the public bodies were working in Wales because they are aware that at they are accountable to the Assembly and they prepare in great detail to make presentations to the Committees. Therefore, the scrutiny work of the Committees was important and I think that that is an essential part of the Committees work because it does make a difference to the way in which the public bodies are working in Wales.

Huw Thomas (In Welsh then interpreted)

Rydyn ni wedi clywed tystiolaeth gan y sefydliadau cyhoeddus, mae cyrff cyhoeddus yn teimlo nad oes yna graffu iawn arnyn nhw wedi bod a phan fydden nhw'n dod gerbron y Pwyllgorau byddai'r Aelodau'n gofyn y cwestiwn cyntaf fyddai'n dod i'w meddwl ac nid efallai o'r gwaith roedden nhw wedi'i gael neu o'r ohebiaeth roedden nhw wedi'i chael o'r etholaethau, ond o safbwynt y weithdrefn, bron fel mae gennych chi yn San Steffan lle mae'r Pwyllgorau'n cael amser i baratoi, lle mae'r clerc yn edrych ar y cwestiynau ac yn dweud dyma'r math o graffu y dylech chi yn unig ei wneud ar gyfer y corff yma.

Interpretation:

We've heard evidence from the public organisations, public bodies feel they have not been scrutinised properly and that when they came before the Committees the Members used to just ask the first question that came into their heads and perhaps not from the work that they received or the correspondence they received from the constituencies, but from the point of view of the procedure, almost as you have in Westminster where the Committees are given time to prepare, where the clerk looks at the questions and says this is the kind of scrutiny only you should undertake on this body.

Delyth Evans (In Welsh then interpreted)

Rwy'n sicr bod hynny'n gallu bod yn wir ond cyfrifoldeb yr Aelodau yw gwneud gwaith craffu effeithiol. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae'n brofiad eithaf newydd i bobl ond dyw hynny ddim yn tanseilio'r ffaith bod y rôl yn un bwysig a bod y gwaith yn eithriadol o bwysig. Cwestiwn arall rwy'n credu yw p'un a yw'n cael ei wneud yn iawn neu beidio. Ond mae'n flin gen i, colles i'ch cwestiwn cyntaf, o, ie, rôl gwaith y Pwyllgor, ie. Mae'r gwaith craffu hwnnw yn bwysig. Ond un peth oedd yn dechrau dod, yn enwedig gyda'r Pwyllgor Materion Gwledig oedd ein bod ni'n rhedeg allan o bethau i'w gosod ar yr agenda. Felly, roedd yna berygl bod pethau'n cael eu rhoi ar yr agenda er mwyn eu rhoi. Bod y Pwyllgor yn meddwl am adolygiadau i’w cynnal dim ond er mwyn llenwi'r agenda a bod neb am i hynny ddigwydd. Mae yna berygl y gallai hynny fod wedi digwydd. Wedi dweud hynny, roed dy gwaith a gafodd ei baratoi yn rhai o adroddiadau'r Pwyllgor yn eithriadol o bwysig. Adroddiad y Pwyllgor addysg ar ôl 16 ar ddiwylliant er enghraifft ar y celfyddydau, rwy'n credu, adolygiadau'r Pwyllgor diwylliant ar y Gymraeg, nifer o enghreifftiau eraill o adolygiadau pwysig iawn a ddaeth allan o'r Pwyllgorau ac yna mae'r amser sy'n cael ei roi i graffu ar y Gweinidog yn bwysig iawn. Yn y Pwyllgor Amaethyddiaeth roedd y gwaith o graffu ar y Gweinidog yn ystod clwy'r traed a'r genau yn eithriadol o bwysig. Yn enwedig i'r ffermwyr. Roedden ni'n gallu gweld bod y problemau'n cael eu deall ac ati ac roedd gwaith y Pwyllgor yn cael ei fonitro'n agos iawn yn ystod y cyfnod anodd iawn yna. Siarad o brofiad y Pwyllgorau roeddwn i'n aelod ohonyn nhw ydw i ond rwy'n siwr bod modd dweud yr un peth am Bwyllgorau eraill. Felly mae gwaith y Pwyllgorau yn bwysig. Rwy'n siwr y gallai'r Aelodau wneud gwaith gwell wrth gwrs ar adegau ambell waith, ond mae rhaid ichi warchod a diogelu gwaith y Pwyllgorau rwy'n credu.

Interpretation:

I am sure that that can be true but it is the responsibility of the Members to carry out effective scrutiny. And, of course, it's quite a new experience for people but that does not undermine the fact that the role is important and that that work is exceptionally important. I think whether it's done effectively or not is another question. But, sorry, I missed your first question, oh, yes, the role of the Committee's work, yes. That scrutiny work is important. But one thing that was beginning to start particularly with Rural Affairs Committee was that we were running out of things to put on the agenda. Therefore, there was a risk that issues were placed on the agenda for the sake of it. That the Committee were thinking of reviews to carry out just in order to fill up the agenda and nobody wished to that to happen. There is a risk that could have happened. Having said that, the work that some of the reports that the Committee prepared were exceptionally important. The report of the post 16 education Committee on culture for example, on arts, I believe, the culture Committee's reviews of the Welsh language, a number of other examples of very important reviews that came out of the Committees and then the time that is given to scrutinise the Minister is very important. In the Agricultural Committee the work of scrutinising the Minister during the foot and mouth disease out break was exceptionally important. Particularly for the farmers. We could see that the problems were being understood and so on and there was very close monitoring of the work of the Committee during that very hard period. I am only speaking from experience of the Committees of which I was a Member but I am sure that the same can be said of other Committees. So the work of the Committees is important. I am certain that Members could of course undertake better work at times occasionally, but you have to safeguard and protect the works of the Committees I believe.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Arising out of those questions there was a reference to the support given to Committees at Westminster by the clerk to the library which is very efficient. We've heard slightly disparate, we've received or I have received slightly disparate impressions of the level of support and the efficacy of support for the Assembly in its first four year term. Could you give us your impression of what you find out how you think it's working?

Delyth Evans

In terms of the level of support from the library and---

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

And from the Committee staff.

Delyth Evans

Well, I thought that the Committee staff were superb. It's difficult for them because they can't -- occasionally the Committee staff would prepare questions or Members to ask. I never really used those questions because I preferred to ask my own questions. I have a background as a journalist, so perhaps I seek out information, used to seeking out information and thinking in that way; in an inquisitive way about these. But that might have been useful to some people. The library has a much more limited role than the library in Westminster certainly. That's more a question of resources than anything else. There has been an effort to improve that by providing specific services to Committees which only got under way in the last quarter, I think, of the Assembly's work. I think because it's early days people are learning the job and it's a bit early to come to judgment about those kind of things.

Lord Richard

Did you use the lawyers?

Delyth Evans

Only I sought advice on the Data Protection Act.

Lord Richard

As a Minister or as---

Delyth Evans

As a back bencher because that had implications for us as politicians.

Vivienne Sugar

I want to stay with the issue of work load and capacity. In your paper you say that the transfer of primary powers to the Assembly would require an increase in AMs and Assembly staff. But from your assessment of what back bench AMs are committed to now, you give a ballpark figure of two and a half days, surely there is capacity to take on more scrutiny if there were to be primary powers. So I wonder whether you care to speculate how much could be absorbed and how many more AMs would be needed to do the job?

Delyth Evans

Back to the two and a half days point. Within the two and a half days that Members are expected and required to be physically in the Assembly, their time is very stretched during the two and a half days. Anybody who comes in to try and do a lunch time presentation understands that because we are constantly rushing around trying to be everywhere at the same time, getting to meetings and so on. The rest of the week in my experience AMs work very hard in their constituencies doing other commitments that are outside the Assembly. I honestly think that most AMs I know work very hard in the time that they are in the Assembly and when they are outside the Assembly in their constituencies. So I want to make that point clearly. As far as the extra capacity that would be required for primary legislation. Obviously the work and the nature of the Committees would change. I think I was struck by what somebody told me from the Scottish Parliament; that they are under enormous amount of pressure because of primary legislation, they are constantly spending time on the minutiae of new legislation. If the Committees were to take on that role I don't know how the would fit in all the of the other things that they are doing at moment. Some things would have to fall. Certainly the type of Committee reviews that have been conducted in the past. I don't see there would be any room for that type of work. You have to protect the scrutiny time. Scrutiny of Ministers and agencies can take up to half of a Committee session. So one and a half hours of a Committee can be spent on scrutiny which only leaves one and a half hours for any other business. If you are dealing with complicated legislation that seems to me not very much time to do that. The other aspect is on the official side. If you are dealing with primary legislation in the Assembly, I assume that you would need an awful lot more lawyers because I don't -- I haven't asked anybody about this but I don't think there is the capacity there or the expertise to create and process new legislation. I would imagine there are vastly more officials in London doing that kind of work.

Ted Rowlands

I read your submission and the very cautious words you tell us about your views on transfer of primary legislation. I want to clarify the basis on which you express the views. You have expressed them in terms of the capacity issue very vividly and forcefully. Is it a matter of principle also that you that feel at this stage there should not be such a transfer? Or, as you also imply in your piece, that it's a question of public opinion? You explained your caution on the capacity issue, what about the issue of principle and then the issue of public opinion?

Delyth Evans

It's not an issue of principle for me, I'm a total agnostic really on transfer of primary powers. It was very important to me that the integrity of Wales as a nation was recognised within the UK political system. That has been achieved with Assembly, so that there was a principle of democracy, there for me which the Labour Government delivered. Having achieved that I think I am now -- I don't have strong views either way. So I don't feel for any kind of principle that Wales should have primary powers as an exertion of national identity. I think I am naturally cautious on big constitutional change like that because I think these things need to be done carefully. I am very concerned about the public opinion aspect of things at the moment. Because we all know that politicians in general are not highly regarded and there is a disillusionment and cynicism about politics across the country that is very worrying. Therefore, I do think politicians need to be extremely mindful of that and should be working quite hard to address it. In doing so we should not take actions that are going to make the situation worse and confirm people's views that politicians are self regarding, arrogant people who do things in their own interests and not for the interests of the public at large, that's terribly important to me. So although I'm not somebody who likes the idea of politics driven by focus groups at all, I think in this case we should not be doing something that does not have the support of the majority of the people.

Dr Laura McAllister

This issue of public opinion is a really complicated one isn't it, in the sense that one can take ones choice really. Listen to the opinion polls, which suggest that more people favour a Scottish model. Listen to people in the public meetings who seem to be saying that if we have got an Assembly let's make it work. Let's make it deliver in terms of public services. I just wonder, could you say anything something about the sequence. We're mindful that we need to prove any worth of having additional powers. The worth has been set out for us by the Secretary of State that we have to prove that it will benefit or people in terms of public services and in terms of the quality of their lives and good governance, so on. But is there not also an argument to say that people are working so hard to make a fairly flawed compromised settlement work that there is a danger that it won't be able to move on in the direction where people will see tangible benefits unless there are additional powers. I wonder to what extent should that condition our debate and considerations as a commission.

Delyth Evans

It's a slightly contradictory position that most general view is that the Assembly is not held in very high regard but at the Simon time opinion polls say that people want more powers for it. That's rather odd. I think when people are asked: do you think the Assembly should have more powers? if people assume that by having more powers that's going to significantly improve the quality of their life and the quality of their hospitals then obviously they will say they want more powers. I think that it's misconceived, this idea. That's what I was trying to explain in my paper; that we are making progress in all those areas and having additional or primary powers in the Assembly is not significantly, in my view, going to change that.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

That was one significant exception, which is you say if there was a change of Government at Westminster then the democratic Welsh accountability might be negated.

Delyth Evans

That's my concern with the present position.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

It would be possible for an imaginary figure, demon figure to completely stop, because of the primary legislative power residing at Westminster, the aspirations of the Assembly.

Delyth Evans

Yes, that's right.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Largely stop it.

Delyth Evans

There is that possibility.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Your paper, if I may say so, is extremely logical and persuasive and I think probably the best case against primary powers that I have read, but you get three-quarters of the way up the mountain then you suddenly begin going down again because you say: what would happen if we had an imaginary demon figure, name of Redwood often comes up in evidence, on some future occasion. It's impossible to imagine that there will be a Labour Government perpetually in power, or very difficult to imagine in Westminster. So where does that leave your argument?

Delyth Evans

Like a sort of well trained journalist I was trying to address both sides of the argument. That is the most compelling case for additional powers. But you could address that case in different ways. Giving primary powers to the Assembly is not the only way of addressing that flaw in the settlement. You could, for instance, introduce legislation in Westminster that would guarantee Parliamentary time for Welsh based legislation, there should be some priority given or some way of ensuring that legislation or request for legislation coming from the Assembly---

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

That could be rescinded by another Government.

Lord Richard

It is more difficult to repeal an Act than it is to---

Delyth Evans

What I am saying is that that needs to be looked at, but primary powers is not the only way of addressing that weakness in the settlement. That's the case I was trying to make. But I hope my paper is not seen as a very strong argument against primary powers. That's not how it was intended. I am fairly neutral. I am saying we have are already making a lot progress with the powers that we have and the argument that we can only make Wales a better place with primary powers is, in my view, misplaced and does mislead people into thinking that that's only the way we can make a difference. We're making a difference already.

Peter Price

I want to come back to some of the nuts and bolts of the role and how it's carried out with the implication of capacity. You are obviously a supporter of the family friendly hours. What does that mean in practice?

Delyth Evans

It means in practice that the formal work of the Assembly, the Committees and Plenary sessions are tightly packed into a normal working day.

Peter Price

That being classified as?

Delyth Evans

9 till 5.30. So that does put pressure on the business. Particularly in Plenary. However, I feel quite strongly that Plenary is not well used, has not been very well used and that there ought to be ways that would could improve the use of Plenary time without extending the time. I argued quite strongly in favour of retaining the current hours of Plenary. There were attempts made to extend Plenary hours, I felt that that gave out completely the wrong signals about the kind of in institution the Assembly was trying to be; a modern family friendly organisation, not only for the politicians about but also for the hundreds on staff who work there and that you can -- I have learned from experience that you can work efficiently within limited time periods if you have to. That's the only way a lot of mothers in particular can work. If you extended the hours at Plenary all that would happen is the politicians would waffle on for a lot longer. It wouldn't make for a more effective set up.

Lord Richard

How many AMs have got families in Cardiff? One of the things that happens in Westminster they come down on the Monday and go back on the Thursday. Family friendly hours on the Tuesday and the Wednesday.

Delyth Evans

That family friendly hours don't apply to AMs from North Wales or West Wales either. I'd say no more than about 7 or 8. But not many of those have young families. Most have grown up children.

Peter Price

I have just follow through, you were mentioning an attempt hat been made to extend the hours. When that vote was taken was it on party lines or did it cut across parties?

Delyth Evans

As I recall it was free vote across---

Peter Price

It did cut across party lines. There was not an informal whip and the Assembly divided?

Delyth Evans

No, not at all.

Peter Price

So far as the meetings that are going on there that you described as being Committee related but not actual Committee meetings, what was the nature of those meetings? I mean how semi-formal are they?

Delyth Evans

Quite informal usually. I was referring to group meetings in anticipation of Committees. So you would have the Labour Culture Members meeting for a pre-meeting. Didn't always happen, but it did happen when there was important business.

Peter Price

That would be half an hour or something like that?

Delyth Evans

Three-quarters of an hour to an hour. But also you get organisations coming to talk to you if they were going to give evidence to the Committee or if there was business coming before the Committee that they had an interest in they would want to come and talk to you to express their views on it. One of the very important aspects of the Assembly is its openness and its accessibility to people. Far more so than Westminster. You have to protect the time that AMs have to meet people. Not just constituents but organisations and groups from across Wales who want to talk to them and do have a very important role to play in the development of policy needs under the Assembly's business.

Peter Price

You mentioned the volume of correspondence, about ten to twenty letters per week. Can you give some idea how many of those are representations from bodies that are circulating every Member, as compared with the kind of letters that demand action of some kind following up an individual constituency problem?

Delyth Evans

About half, half I would say. Sometimes less. Constituency casework was -- I mean, sometimes one or two letters a week. But, yes, I think. So it's hard to put a figure on it actually. But I would say about half.

Peter Price

Last point is about your experience of representing Mid and West Wales which is a uniquely large constituency. With that experience what comment would you have about the electoral regions that are currently in Wales?

Delyth Evans

That's a very difficult one. I just don't think that any system is perfect. I think there are good and bad things about the regional system. I did feel as a regional Member that I was able to represent -- I was able to take a regional view and look at things in a slightly more strategic way than a constituency Member who was focusing entirely on things that were going on in their constituency. So when I was talking about rural issues or transport issues, I was able to take a strategic view across my region. So I do think that that enabled me to contribute in a slightly different way and in a valuable way. I am in favour in the principle of PR and so the regional system is a way of enabling that to happen. But I do not think it's in any way ideal. But no system is perfect. So I don't have very clear views on it, I am afraid, or I don't have very clear views as to how we can improve on it.

Tom Jones (in Welsh then interpreted)

Y Pwyllgorau Rhanbarth y buoch chi'n eu cadeirio, Pwyllgor y Canolbarth, mae dyn yn meddwl tybed beth ddylai gael ei wneud am y rhain. Ydyn nhw'n gweithio? Oes yna ddiffiniad rhanbarthol sy'n gwneud synnwyr mewn gwirionedd? Oes yna bynciau rhanbarthol? Rydyn ni'n clywed tystiolaeth gan Aelodau'r Cynulliad nad ydyn nhw'n teimlo mai dyma'r ffordd orau o gydadweithio â phobl mewn rhanbarth. Hwyrach pe bai'r Pwyllgorau Pwnc yn mynd allan ac yn trafod pwnc penodol byddai hynny'n denu mwy o sylw ac mae'n debyg mai dim ond Pwyllgor y Gogledd sy'n orfodol yn ôl y cyfansoddiad. Oes gennych chi farn ar y ffordd orau i ddefnyddio amser Aelodau'r Cynulliad ar y naill law a hefyd er mwyn cydadweithio â'r bobl ymhellach i ffwrdd o Gaerdydd?

Interpretation:

The Regional Committees you were Chair of, the Mid Wales Committee, one wonders about what should be done about these. Do they work. Is there a regional definition which actually makes sense? Are there regional topics? We hear evidence from Members of the Assembly that they don't feel that this is the best way of interacting with people within a region. Maybe the Subject Committee's actually going out and discussing a particular topic might attract more attention and apparently only the North Wales Committee is required by the constitution. Do you have a view as to the best use of the AMs time on one hand and in order of also to interact with the people further away from Cardiff?

Delyth Evans (In Welsh then interpreted)

Wel, des i i'r casgliad bod gan y Pwyllgorau Rhanbarth ran werthfawr i'w chwarae, yn sicr i Bwyllgor y Canolbarth y bues i'n Aelod ohono, a'r rheswm am hynny yw'r ffordd y mae'r Pwyllgorau Rhanbarth yn mynd allan i'r cymunedau ac yn mynd â'r Cynulliad allan i gymunedau ledled Cymru ac rwy'n credu bod hynny yn bwysig iawn. Wrth gwrs, mae pobl yn gallu delio'n uniongyrchol â'u Haelod Cynulliad penodol nhw ond mae gweld y Pwyllgor wrth ei waith a gweld Aelodau'r Pwyllgor yn cyd-drafod yn werthfawr iawn wrth esbonio i bobl sut mae'r Cynulliad yn gweithio mewn gwirionedd. Nawr mae'n dibynnu lawer iawn ar Gadeirydd y Pwyllgor a'r Aelodau. Rwy'n credu bod yr holl Bwyllgorau Rhanbarth yn bur wahanol o ran eu natur. Un peth y llwyddon ni i'w wneud yn eithaf llwyddiannus yn ein Pwyllgor Rhanbarth ni oedd mynd i gymunedau a delio mewn ffordd draws-bleidiol â materion oedd yn bwysig i'r cymunedau hynny. Ga i roi enghraifft ichi, roedd yna broblem erydu'r arfordir yn ardal Tywyn oedd wedi bod yn broblem fawr yn yr ardal. Doedd neb wedi mynd i'r afael â'r broblem. Roedd cyfrifoldebau gan lawer o asiantaethau, yr awdurdod lleol er enghraifft, a doedd dim byd yn digwydd. Doedd y bobl ddim yn hapus. Aethon ni i Dywyn. Aethon ni gyda'n gilydd. Daeth y gwahanol asiantaethau at ei gilydd a daeth bron 200 o bobl i'r cyfarfod Pwyllgor yma am eu bod nhw'n gweld bod y Cynulliad yn dod i'w hardal ac yn trafod rhywbeth oedd o bwys mawr iddyn nhw. Fe wnaethon ni symud ymlaen ar hyn.

Interpretation:

Well, I came to the conclusion that there is a valuable role for the Regional Committees to play, certainly for the Mid Wales Committee, which I was a Member of, and the reason for that is the way in which the Regional Committees go out into the communities and take the Assembly out to the communities throughout Wales and I do think that this is very much important. Of course, people can deal directly with their particular Assembly Member but seeing the Committee working and seeing the Committee Members discussing with each other is very valuable in explaining to people how the Assembly actually works. Now it depends very much on the Chair and the Members of the Committee. I think all the Regional Committees are very different in nature. One thing we have managed to do quite effectively in our Regional Committee was to go to communities and deal in a cross party way with matters which were important to those communities. May I give you an example, there was a problem of coastal erosion in the Towyn area which had been a great problem of this area. Nobody had gone about tackling the problem. Many agencies had responsibilities, the local authority, for example, and nothing was happening. The people were than unhappy. We went to Towyn. Went together. The various agencies came together and nearly 200 people actually came to this Committee meeting because they saw that the Assembly was coming to their area and discussing something of great importance to them. We did move forward on this.

Tom Jones (In Welsh then interpreted)

Allwch chi esbonio sut gwnaeth Pwyllgor Rhanbarth, hwyrach nad oedd y Gweinidog oedd yn gyfrifol am y gwaith hwnnw'n Aelod o'r Pwyllgor hwnnw, ond sut aethoch chi ati i ohebu â'r Gweinidog perthnasol. Roedd pwnc yn cael ei graffu yn y Pwyllgor ond sut oeddech chi'n dangos i bobl eich bod chi wedi gwrando ac wedi mynd â'r neges yn ôl ac yna ymateb gyda phenderfyniad y Gweinidog?

Interpretation:

Could you explain how a Regional Committee, maybe the Minister responsible for that work was not a Member of that Committee, but how did you actually correspond with the relevant Minister. A topic was scrutinised in the Committee but how did you show people that you had listened and taken the message back and then respond with a decision of the Minister?

Delyth Evans (In Welsh and then interpreted)

Ydyn, oedden drwy siarad â'r Gweinidog. Cael cyfarfod â'r Gweinidog. Yna gohebu yn ysgrifenedig â grwp lleol i ddangos bod hynny wedi digwydd ac felly beth oedd yn digwydd o ganlyniad i'r cyfarfod. Roedd y ffaith bod gennych chi Aelodau o'r pleidiau gwahanol i gyd yn cynrychioli un ardal a allai ddod at ei gilydd er mwyn sicrhau bod rhywbeth yn digwydd yn eithaf effeithiol ac yn fwy effeithiol na phe bai un neu ddau o Aelodau o un blaid yn galw am i rywbeth ddigwydd. Roedd hyn yn rhoi grym ychwanegol i'r hyn roedd y Pwyllgor yn awyddus i'w weld yn digwydd. Ein bod ni'n dod o bleidiau gwahanol ac yn gallu penderfynu ar ran y Canolbarth, ein bod ni am weld hyn yn digwydd. Roedd hyn yn rhoi mwy o bwysau ar y Gweinidog ac fe wnaeth hi ymateb i hyn. Does dim byd i ddweud y gallai Pwyllgor yr Amgylchedd fod wedi mynd allan a delio â'r un broblem, ond dwy ddim yn meddwl y byddai hynny wedi digwydd achos roedd hyn mor benodol i'r ardal. Mae enghreifftiau eraill lle buon ni'n cydweithio fel hyn. Ond rwy'n credu yn bendant fod Pwyllgor y Canolbarth yn Bwyllgor eithaf bach ac fel arfer roedd pawb yn deall a bydden ni'n cydweithredu'n eithaf da gyda phobl ar draws llinellau'r pleidiau.

Interpretation:

Yes, we do, did, through speaking with the Minister. Having a meeting with a Minister. Then corresponding in writing with a local group to show that this had happened and so what was happening as a consequence of the meeting. The fact that you had Members from different parties all representing one area who could come together in order to ensure that something happened was quite effective and more effective than had there been one or two Members of one party calling for something to happen. It did give extra power to what the Committee wanted to see happening. That we were from different parties and could decide on behalf of Mid Wales, that we wanted to see this happening. It did put more pressure on the Minister and she did respond to this. There is nothing to say that the Environment Committee could have gone out and dealt with the same problem, but I don't think it would have happened because this was so specific to this area. There are other examples of us working in his way. But I do think the Mid Wales Committee was quite a small Committee and usually everyone actually understood and we would co-operate quite well with people across party lines.

Tom Jones (In Welsh then interpreted)

Felly fyddech chi ddim yn newid y system ranbarthol o gwbl?

Interpretation:

So you wouldn't change the regional system at all?

Delyth Evans (In Welsh then interpreted)

Wel, rwy'n credu yn bendant fod angen canllawiau cliriach i ddweud beth yn hollol y dylai’r Pwyllgorau Rhanbarth fod yn ei wneud am fod cymaint o amrywio rhyngddyn nhw. Ond o ran eu cadw nhw, rwy'n credu bod ganddyn nhw ran i'w chwarae.

Interpretation:

Well, I do think we need clearer guidelines to say what exactly Regional Committee should be doing because there is much variation between them. But in terms of retaining them I think they have a role to play.

Eira Davies (In Welsh then interpreted)

Ga i fynd ar ôl yr iaith Gymraeg. Fel dirprwy Weinidog ar y Pwyllgor Diwylliant wrth gwrs roedd gennych chi gyfraniad allweddol i'r Adolygiad ar yr iaith Gymraeg, ydych chi'n credu y dylai'r Cynulliad gael pwerau i ddeddfu ynghylch y Gymraeg?

Interpretation:

May I follow up on the Welsh language. As a deputy Minister on the Culture Committee of course you had a key input into the Welsh Language Review, do you believe that the Assembly should have law making powers over the Welsh language?

Delyth Evans (In Welsh and the interpreted)

Wel, ar un ystyr fe fyddai'n gwneud synnwyr y dylen nhw achos ei bod hi'n unigryw i Gymru o'i chymharu ag unrhyw le arall ym Mhrydain, ond fe allech chi ddweud hynny am unrhyw beth. Gallech chi ddweud nad yw'r gwasanaeth iechyd yng Nghymru yn effeithio ar bobl yn Lloegr neu unrhyw agwedd neu bolisi arall. Darlledu yng Nghymru neu beth bynnag arall. Felly dwy ddim yn credu ei bod hi mor syml â dweud mai mater i Gymru yn unig yw hi, sef yr iaith Gymraeg a beth am gael y pwerau. Mater i'r ysgolion yng Nghymru yn unig.

Interpretation:

Well, in one sense it would make sense that they should because its unique to Wales as opposed to anywhere else in Britain, but you could say that about anything. You could say that the health service in Wales does not impact on people in England or any other aspect or policy. Broadcasting in Wales or whatever else. So I don't believe that it's as simple as just saying its just solely a matter for Wales, namely the Welsh language and what about having the powers. Solely a matter for the schools in Wales.

Eira Davies (In Welsh then interpreted)

Ond mae wedi dod yn amlwg oherwydd ffiasgo'r Swyddfa Cofnodion Troseddol. Sut gallech chi osgoi sefyllfa o'r math yna?

Interpretation:

But it has become evident because of the fiasco over the Criminal Records Bureau. How could you avoid that kind of situation?

Delyth Evans (In Welsh then interpreted)

Mae hynny wedi cael ei ddatrys yn effeithiol. Mae'r Swyddfa wedi derbyn bod angen newid agwedd. Felly mae'r canlyniad wedi bod yn un cadarnhaol. Dwy ddim yn credu y byddai cael pwerau sylfaenol yng Nghymru wedi newid hynny. Dwy ddim yn credu.

Interpretation:

That has been resolved relatively effectively. The Bureau has accepted the need for a change in attitude. Therefore the outcome there has been a positive one. Having primary powers in Wales I don't believe would have changed that. I don't believe.

Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much. That was terribly useful from the practical point of view to see what AMs do and how they do it.

Delyth Evans