COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

EVIDENCE OF:

Gwenda Thomas AM

Chair of National Assembly for Wales Equality of Opportunity Committee

 held at

Caradog House, Cardiff

On

FRIDAY 25 JULY 2003

In Attendance

Lord Richard

Eira Davies (part thereof)

Tom Jones

Peter Price

Ted Rowlands

Vivienne Sugar

Huw Thomas

Paul Valerio

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth KCB

Gwenda Thomas AM

Claire Bennett

Proceedings

Lord Richard

Thank you very much for coming. Could you identify yourselves for the transcript and then open up the discussion for us?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes, thank you. I am Gwenda Thomas and I Chair the National Assembly's Equality of Opportunity Committee.

Claire Bennett

I am Claire Bennett - Committee Clerk.

Gwenda Thomas

Just a short introduction. I am grateful for this opportunity to give the evidence on the work of the Equality of Opportunity Committee. The Committee felt it was important that the Commission had the chance to hear first hand about issues that the Committee deals with and the way it conducts its business.

I plan to briefly summarise the role of the Committee and issues it considered, how it conducts its business and how it has evolved over time.

The role of the Committee, is to audit the arrangements the Assembly puts in place, to promote equality of opportunity for all people in the exercise of its functions and the conduct of its business. The Committee has considered a wide range of issues and produced a range of outputs. For example, it has conducted a detailed policy review of 'Service Provision for Gypsies and Travellers'.

The review was very cross-cutting, and it covered the issues falling within a number of ministerial portfolios. The Committee has responded to a number of consultation documents, for example, on the UK Government's proposal for a single equality body and on the access to electoral procedures.

A sub-group of the Committee acted as the steering group for the joint Assembly Equal Opportunities Commission and the TUC equal pay campaign.

The Committee gave detailed consideration to how the education recommendations contained in the Stephen Lawrence inquiry report could be implemented by the Welsh Assembly.

The Committee examined the treatment of asylum seekers in Wales and, with the Minister, was successful in ensuring that asylum seekers were no longer housed inside Cardiff prison.

The Committee has conducted its business on the basis of consensus.

The Committee has evolved over time. In particular, there has been a significant shift in the role of the Minister: for much of the first Assembly, a minister was required by Standing Orders, to chair the Committee. In November last year Standing Orders were revised so that Ministers could no longer chair the Committee and, until the election, the Minister with cross-cutting responsibilities for equality remained as a Member of Committee.

Now, the Committee has no ministers as members, but can call ministers for scrutiny.

I hope that is helpful.

Lord Richard

Yes, can I pursue the last bit - no ministers as members of the Committee?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes. There are no ministers as members of the Committee. We have the new portfolio for social justice, and that Minister has overall responsibility for equal opportunities, but the Committee does have the power to call in any minister, for example, the First Minister to give evidence to us.

Lord Richard

Are you the only Committee?

Gwenda Thomas

Sorry?

Lord Richard

Are you the only Committee in the Assembly where the Minister does not sit?

Claire Bennett

The Audit Committee does not have a minister for obvious reasons, neither does the Legislation Committee. It is the only Committee with a policy scrutiny role that does not have a minister.

Lord Richard

This is since last September?

Claire Bennett

Since May.

Lord Richard

Since the election?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes. It is a decision that the Minister has taken and that decision has been explained to the Committee.

Lord Richard

Do you see yourselves as a sub-committee of the Welsh Assembly?

Gwenda Thomas

I would not want that. I would want the Committee to be as effective as it possibly can be as a Standing Committee as opposed to a Subject Committee, of course, and the Assembly has no (inaudible).

The Standing Orders do require us to have an Equality of Opportunity Committee. In order to be effective, I do think it has got to have powers across the board.

Peter Price

To clarify, if I may, the other two committees: Audit and Legislation have never had a Minister as a member, but the only change in May was in respect of your Committee.

Gwenda Thomas

There was a change in the European Committee as well, yes, at the same time.

Claire Bennett

Yes, shall I speak to this?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes, please.

Claire Bennett

Up until November last year, the European Committee and the Equality of Opportunity Committee were required to be chaired by a Minister but after a change to Standing Orders ministers were no longer able to chair the Committees.

Lord Richard

Who was the Minister?

Claire Bennett

Do you mean European Minister, or the Equality Minister? It was Carwyn Jones at the time. He was Minister for open government and that portfolio included equality.

Lord Richard

He was on the Committee?

Claire Bennett

Yes and then in May, the Minister with cross-cuting responsibility for equality was Edwina Hart and she decided she did not wish to be a member of the Committee but wanted to come and give evidence.

The European Minister continued as Member of that Committee. Therefore, there are two Committees in the same position in terms of the Standing Orders which have taken a different route.

Lord Richard

Do you find it more helpful to be slightly detached?

Gwenda Thomas

I believe we are finding our way. I have just started to chair the Committee, and I certainly had some reservations when this was first put and wanted to make sure that Standing Orders did support the Minister's decision not to be a Member of the Committee. Having had the opportunity to read the guidance from the Legal Department, I accept that Standing Orders do now allow the Minister not to be a Member of the Standing Committee but, nevertheless, she has overall responsibility for Equality of Opportunity.

So, we need to see how the role develops and how we connect with the portfolio, and where the responsibility lies. I think it is very much an exploratory process at the moment.

Lord Richard

Can you call ministers from other departments?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes, indeed, including the First Minister. I would think that with certain issues, particularly on social justice, we might have to have even three ministers to attend the Committee at the same time or to link the evidence from one minister to another.

Lord Richard

Very interesting. You are a more detached Committee than the other committees.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

One of the interesting points that comes out of your paper is that the Committee has twice decided not to venture into the jungle of human rights. What are the reasons for this decision?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes, I know that in the forward programme we are going to look at the Human Rights Act again but perhaps Claire can recall.

Claire Bennett

Yes, the basic reason was that the Committee felt that the Government of Wales Act produces the specific duty to promote equality of opportunity, and it was important that the Committee adopt that focus. Should they choose to look at human rights as well, it would become unfocused and risk looking at specific cases of infringements of rights legislation.

I think the Committee recognised it might be appropriate that someone looked at human rights but did not think it should dilute its own focus on equality.

The Committee has looked at this issue twice and has come to the same conclusion; it was not the right thing for the Equality of Opportunity Committee to be doing. The Committee touches on human rights issues quite often. For example, the review of service provision for Gypsies and Travellers draws on the provisions of the Human Rights Act and Convention.

Lord Richard

Which committee is responsible to look at that?

Gwenda Thomas

There's not one.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Your major piece of work is on Gypsies and Travellers. I was trying to think of what your Report was brewing up. I have realised it has actually been produced now but I am afraid I have not had the chance to read. It is a great big report.

To go into this subject, yet always leaving everything out within the human rights field would seem, to me, very difficult.

Gwenda Thomas

The experience I have of this was from a group where an issue arose when, indeed, we had to have advice on the human rights aspect. I think that there will be a time when we have to consult the Legal Department on whether the Human Rights Act does effect decisions that we have made, or are about to make. I cannot see that we can say that we will never touch on the Human Rights Act. That is my view.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Has the Committee considered the issue of Freemasons?

Gwenda Thomas

No, the Standards Committee has, but not the Equality of Opportunity Committee. I can say about the Standards Committee because I am a member of that. Indeed, that Committee was the one in which the question of the Human Rights Act I mentioned earlier arose.

Huw Thomas

In discussing more generally the scope of the Committee, one of the things that came up in the evidence session we had before was the question about whether the Assembly, by its way of promoting Equal Opportunities, was actually exceeding some of the statutory powers to do so. It is the North Wales Ethnic Minority Committee that raised this, so I am just intrigued to bottom it out. Is there any kind of problem that you are aware of?

Gwenda Thomas

It all depends on what we mean by promoting Equal Opportunities. Certainly I have mentioned that Equal Opportunities is dealt with quite clearly in the Government of Wales Act, and there is an absolute responsibility placed on the National Assembly for Wales to ensure equality of opportunity.

I think what we need to understand is what exactly the Government of Wales Act means when it refers to this. There is a requirement along with ensuring Equal Opportunities to ensure sustainable development, for example, and social inclusion which is mentioned in the Government of Wales Act. Therefore, I would like to be able to decide exactly what the Government of Wales Act is saying to the Assembly. Is it telling us to promote Equal Opportunities? Is it telling us to ensure that there is no discrimination in the Assembly's policy development work? Or what, exactly, is being said here?

I think there is room for clarification.

Lord Richard

If you find that there is discrimination, what can you actually do?

Gwenda Thomas

It depends on whether the rules are covered because some have to be referred to outside bodies and even to the Standards Committee, and it is not outside the powers of the Equality of Opportunity Committee to refer to the Standards Committee or, indeed, to the full Assembly. I think it very much depends on the nature of the discrimination.

Lord Richard

Yes.

Vivienne Sugar

I wanted to ask that as the Committee is developed, and it is starting to produce reports, whether the reports' conclusions actually call on the UK Government to do anything?

There were a lot of gypsies in 1967, or something like that. Anyway, a lot of it is primarily legislation that has not been devolved to the Assembly.

Similarly, with the work you did on asylum seekers, we heard evidence in this room a fortnight ago that it was difficult for the Assembly to act in any more of a "Humanitarian way" because the responsibility was with the Home Office, and so forth.

I wondered in this particular field if you were coming up against these issues of powers all the time, and the type of policy recommendations to which you are coming up against?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes, I think that would have been particularly relevant when we looked at the social justice aspect. In my view, this always comes up against the benefits issue. I think we saw that with the introduction of the Assembly's Learning Grants.There was a stumbling of the way, if you like, before that policy could be introduced.

So, yes I do believe as we are talking about equality of opportunity and looking at issues, we have now a situation where, for example, CAFCAS is an England and Wales organisation. We now understand that the responsibility for CAFCAS is going to transfer to the UK Minister who has responsibility for children. In the UK Government at the moment, it is Margaret Hodge, she is going to have responsibility for CAFCAS. That brings in the Guardian Ad Litum issue, et cetera.

That is very much an issue for Equality of Opportunity so we need to clarify now how that is going to connect with the Assembly Minister for Health and Social Services.

Vivienne Sugar

How would you clarify it? Is it that you produce a report that is given to the Minister in the Assembly, and then the Minister in the Assembly then talks to Margaret Hodge?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes, but we need to follow that through and understand the link because it will touch across portfolios here. We need to be quite clear how we will connect because although Wales has very definite separate policies on children's issues and needs to influence primary legislation and governance.This is how those policies can be developed.

When we are talking about different portfolios, responsibility for CAFCAS lies with the DEFS, for example, in Westminster, and in the Assemblyewith Health and Social Services . It is then that I really do think that these matters need to be referred on as they arise. This particular one on CAFCAS has arisen and it is going to have be an issue and have an effect on how we develop children's policies in the Welsh Assembly.

Lord Richard

Yes, fine.

(The following in Welsh, then interpreted)

Tom Jones

With regard to that particular problem, how would you go about tackling that problem? Would you ask the Minister in the Assembly? Would you ask the Minister in the Assembly to invite Margaret Hodge to devolve CAFCAS, or some sort of system of co-operation between two ministers which would then provide you with the necessary information?

The final point. Would you expect to be able to call officials from England/Wales Bodies to appear before you and give evidence?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes. I think we are talking here about whether we should have more powers. I suppose we should be able to call on people from outside the public sector to appear before the Committee if the need should arise. However, I think that it would make a great deal of sense if CAFCAS were to be directly responsible to Wales and the Assembly, and then there may be less confusion on the occasions when these kind of things arise.

Another example is the Youth Justice Board. This serves England and Wales. Questions will arise on the work of the Youth Justice Board as to how we look at strategies to avoid crime, for example, but these institutions do have a responsibility on an England and Wales basis. We have to look to see if there is a way to get rid of the confusion by bringing them directly responsible to Wales, and to separate that from the responsibility to England.

Tom Jones

One other brief question, just looking at the Committee's work, what is the situation in terms of the research? Do you have a research officer for your Committee?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes, we could appoint someone to assist us from outside the Assembly, and to give advice to Committee or we can use the officials already working within the Assembly that are there to give advice. There is a unit that has been established to give advice either to committees or to individual members and they have just started on their work; the unit is developing.

I think it is going to be extremely valuable to the Assembly as a whole and to the various committees within the Welsh Assembly.

Tom Jones

What was the main reason the Minister gave for not being a main Member of the Committee?

Gwenda Thomas

I think she saw it as something that should be the responsibility of each and every Minister and, although she did have responsibility for equality of opportunity within her portfolio, I think she felt - and there is a letter that the Commission could be given to explain this - the Minister felt there was a responsibility on every minister rather than the individual Minister, and the First Minister agreed.

(End of Welsh translation)

Ted Rowlands

On the report on the Gypsies and Travellers, did the Committee identify where the Assembly did not have to implement its recommendations?

Claire Bennett

Yes. The majority of the Report focuses on things in the Assembly's remit. There is a chapter on education issues, a chapter on health issues and then there are things to do with the sort of statutory framework for sites provision; that is a matter of primary legislation.

There is a table at the back of the Report that has all the recommendations that states to whom they are aimed and what the Committee expects to happen.

In the case of those recommendations that are a matter for the UK Government, the recommendation is for the Assembly Government to talk to their counterparts in Westminster to bring about the specific changes outlined.

On sites provision, the recommendation is about finding out what is the best way of implementing the situation rather than saying "we must do this".

Ted Rowlands

In those areas identified to UK Ministers, was it a suggestion of the Committee that they should have a functional power or should be part of an influence upon a UK administration that was accepted had to remain at UK level?

Claire Bennett

I do not think really it addresses that question. They are phrased more like 'this is a problem that needs to be solved and in the current legislatitive situation, you need to talk to the UK Government about it and then decide if the relevant powers should be transferred, and if so how'.

Tom Jones

Does it not identify a set of standards?

Claire Bennett

It is not phrased in that work.

Tom Jones

Yes, it is unfinished work or business until the loop has been...

Gwenda Thomas

The Committee could recommend that the Minister has responsibility in the Assembly as the direct contact. That has happened with housing stock transfer where the first recommendation of the Committee was quite clear that money should be made available for public retention of ownership in Wales. The Minister was then charged to take that to the...

Tom Jones

Yes, battle with the Treasury.

Gwenda Thomas

I do not see the Equality of Opportunity Committee would be restricted to do that.

Ted Rowlands

You mentioned in this work you were up against benefits and individual rights issues. How far do you want these things to become devolved in as much as are you willing to accept the concept of variable rights and benefits in these fields? That is a very, very difficult field to walk into.

Gwenda Thomas

Yes, it is a very complicated issue. However, I quite firmly believe that the benefits issue is going to be an ongoing problem.

In order to develop any social justice policy it is vital. If you look at the means testing procedure and the requirement at the moment., You can have a person's pay packet means-tested at least four times before you decide how much council tax should be paid. I think there is room for simplifying the means-testing procedure that might allow the responsibility to be devolved, although within the same regulation requirements, I think that could happen.

Ted Rowlands

You distinguish the Administration to have a variable to certain benefits, housing benefits?

Gwenda Thomas

Yes. At the moment we have devolved the power to local authorities to means-test in order to assess student loans, in order to assess student grants and in order to assess housing benefits. Why can't the Assembly do that as well? If the Assembly gives the responsibility for administration to local authorities, as has happened in many of these issues, then perhaps there could be in-built possibilities for the Assembly to be able to consider the benefits issues that effect that policy while it is developing the policy. Then we would not need this panic contact with Westminster when these things arise at the last minute.

Lord Richard

Yes.

Vivienne Sugar

I notice you have on your work plan a list of other issues to be considered.

On discrimination and on the issue of language, given there is responsibility for the Welsh Language Act which is not devolved, where and when discussion takes place it tends to be the Culture Committee. Can you expand on what that work might involve?

Gwenda Thomas

It is not only the Welsh language, of course, there should be responsibility for the other languages of Wales. My view is that we need to extend the principle of bi-lingualism to embrace all languages. If you think of translating everything into every language, one can see that there is a considerable cost. In translating everything into Welsh, for example, or producing all the papers timeously, that is a problem at the moment.

However, I do think that if an individual or an organisation has any difficulty in communicating in any other language other than their home language, we should accommodate them and have no discrimination just because they cannot speak English, or Welsh, for that matter.

Claire Bennett

Some of the work that the Committee has done previously on Welsh language is around public appointments, and ensuring that the Welsh language is represented on the Board Committees. That is one thing that has been looked at previously.

Vivienne Sugar

Would it extend into the planning of service provision? What is the distinction between what the Culture Committee does and what you do in terms of, particularly, Welsh language?

Gwenda Thomas

I think there would be a lot of similarities in the issue that is considered. I think the difference is that the Culture Commission is seeking to make it possible to embrace all other languages because it is very much a part of that portfolio, and it would be a requirement in policy development within that portfolio.

For Equal Opportunities, I think it would be to look more particularly on any discriminatory practices that could arise within that.

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

In paragraphs 21 and 22 of your Report, you talk about equality and diversity, and making it happen.

In paragraph 22 you refer to, "The Committee stress that a new Body would need a single legislative underpinning that and a single equality Act with a pre-requisite for it to be able to operate effectively".

Just now you were talking in a way that was very helpful on difficult issues such as benefits. If we had a single Act, it is a bit difficult to see how a single Act could satisfactorily encompass the Welsh and English practice.

Gwenda Thomas

I think what has been considered here, and perhaps Claire will help, is the establishment of an equality board.

Claire Bennett

Yes.

Gwenda Thomas

Yes the Single Equality Board. That would be an issue. I have not been involved with this issue, but I mentioned the Youth Justice Board, an England/Wales organisation. I think the matter could arise here as well.

Claire Bennett

The issue is all about a number of European Directives which are coming into force soon and which provide equality legislation for further equality strands, for example sexual orientation, age etc. The quote is drawn from the Committee's conclusions on how these Directives should be implemented.

At the moment, you have the Race Relations and Disability Rights legislation and Gender legislation, all of which are phrased slightly differently and have different powers and different enforcement powers. If you are bringing in another set of equality strands, and yet more different sorts of levels of status, it is very complicated and complicated for business to know what they are supposed to be applying to different people. It was concluded that a single Act would help qualify things because you would have clarity of the status of the different equality strands.

The Committee also concluded this would be done on a UK basis, but that they would want to see a Welsh arm of a single equality body with a high level of independence in Wales.

Lord Richard

Yes, good. Thank you very much indeed. We have been very grateful to you for coming back.