THURSDAY 22^ND MAY 2003

EVIDENCE OF RHIAN DAVIES, CHIEF EXECUTIVE, DISABILITY WALES, DEREK WALKER, POLICY OFFICER, STONEWALL CYMRU, ANGHARAD DAVIES, CHAIR, JOYCE WATSON, FIELDWORKER AND MARY SLATER, COALITION MANAGER, WALES WOMENS NATIONAL COALITION

Present

The Rt Hon Lord Richard, QC – Chair
Eira Davies
Tom Jones
Dr Laura McAllister
Peter Price
Ted Rowlands
Vivienne Sugar
Huw Vaughan Thomas

Paul Valerio
Sir Michael Wheeler Booth

Rhian Davies, Chief Executive, Disability Wales
Derek Walker, Policy Officer, Stonewall Cymru
Angharad Davies, Chair
Joyce Watson, Fieldworker
Mary Slater, Coalition Manager, Wales Womens National Coalition

Lord Richard

Can I start off by thanking you very much for coming. The procedure we have adopted throughout is we have begun by you introducing yourselves for the sake of the transcript and then if each organisation would like to speak to open the subject up from your particular point of view and then the Commission, we would like them to pursue different issues and perhaps we will do that.

Rhian Davies

I am Rhian Davies and I am Chief Executive of Disability Wales. Disability Wales is the National Association of Disability Groups in Wales and we work to promote the rights, inclusion and equality and support of disabled people throughout Wales.

Derek Walker

I am Derek Walker. I am the Policy Officer of Stonewall Cymru. Stonewall Cymru works for equality and social justice for lesbian, gay and bisexual people in Wales.

Angharad Davies

I am Angharad Davies and I am Chair of the Wales Women's National Coalition. My job is as Public Affairs Adviser for the Royal College of Nursing, but I am here in my capacity of as Chair of the WWNC and I am joined by my colleagues, Mary Slater and Joyce Watson. Mary is the Coalition Manager and they are both staff members, and Joyce Watson is the field worker. The Wales Women's National Coalition is an umbrella body of organisations whose membership is wholly or mostly women, and just to give you an example of the type of organisations we have in membership, the Women's Institute is a member and right across the spectrum to organisations like the Minorities Ethnic Women's Network, MEWN Cymru Lesbian Women's Groups, professional organisations such as the Royal College of Nursing and Women's organisations that provide services to very vulnerable women like Women's Aid, so I think the strength of our organisation is in the diversity of our membership.

Joyce Watson

As field worker, my role is very much to go out and consult women and their organisations within their own communities and I feel from my experience that people are more honest, more likely to want to speak to you in their own environment. I am always welcomed because I am in people's own environment and they speak quite freely. In particular we focus on policy issues, how they are working or how they are not working, and how they might work better within our key theme areas which is domestic violence, work/life balance and more women into public life.

Mary Slater

We came in mob-handed, as you can see; you get three variations on a theme! I am the Coalition Manager and my task is to manage the processes of setting up what is in effect a fairly recent organisation. We have only been a company since last April -- not this immediate last April, the one before that -- and we are very happy to be an Assembly sponsored consultative organisation and, as Joyce and Angharad have already said, we see our role to be a three-way stretch. On the one hand we are there to consult with our constituency as it were on Assembly policies; we are also there to find out what women on the ground think the Assembly ought to be doing and also we are there, having found out what women on the ground think the Assembly ought to be doing we think we are there to prod the Assembly to a certain extent into doing it and we have adopted three key themes: our main one being getting more women into public life which, as we speak, you could think Wales had got there already, but if you look at the representation of women in Local Government, with the elections coming up next year they certainly have not, so we feel we have got a very heroic prodding duty to carry out.

Lord Richard

Thank you very much. I wonder if I could ask each of the organisations to give us some idea of the relationship with the Assembly and what the sort of issues are raised with Assembly, how they are received and whether you think it is all working.

Rhian Davies

Disability Wales has a long standing relationship formerly with the Welsh office and subsequently with the Assembly. Our core funding comes from the Assembly from the Social Care Division, and it is known as Section 64 funding and we have had that for 15, 20 years, so it is a long-standing relationship and through that that enables us to carry out work such as providing information around disability issues, both to the Assembly and other statutory bodies and also to our membership. We provide a helpline. We produce newsletters. We provide briefings on consultation documents, for example, and then we also work around developing our membership groups so that they are in a stronger position to be able to engage in the consultation process.

Our other funding that we get from the Assembly is from the Equality Policy Unit and that is specifically focused on developing the practice in consultation between the Assembly and disabled people and their organisations, and we have been advising the Assembly on good practice; for example, like the length of time needed in terms of producing, going about a consultation process. It is not, "Comment on this 1002-page document by yesterday"; you actually need a lot longer than that; more like three months. We raised with them issues around formats in which they provide information: accessible formats, Braille or large print, and then we also work with our groups to support the way in which they can contribute to consultation documents themselves. I think we have managed to work with quite an effective relationship with the Assembly. We are a recognised body. The Assembly comes to us quite a lot, wanting our advice and we put on various aspects of disability issues.

Lord Richard

What sort of things?

Rhian Davies

Well, sometimes it will be on key policy areas. For example, not just Assembly matters but, for example, we would be involved with Cadw about their guidance on access to historic buildings and that Cadw had to report to the Assembly Equal Opportunities Committee, for example, about progress there because obviously the Minister has responsibilities; it is an Executive Agency. So that has been an issue. I have provided you with a case study around the charging issue. We work with them very closely on that issue. We have worked with the departments for planning, transport and environment, looking at their policies and work around, for example, access to countryside, planning issues; particularly access to transport, for example, is one of our major issues.

At the moment you may be aware it is the European Year of Disabled People and the Assembly has helped to initiate a Committee which I chair to promote the year and make the funding available and provide support from the Equal Opportunities Unit to develop the year and through that we are aiming to have plenary debates on disability issues. We have got one coming up in June and we are hoping to have two later on in the year. We are going to be giving a presentation to the Assembly's Equal Opportunities Committee on the year and we are also hoping to provide a briefing session for new Assembly Members around disability issues, how they can be more effective in terms of responding to the needs of their disabled constituents. So it is a broad range really.

Lord Richard

How do you find relationships with the Assembly, compared with the Welsh office?

Rhian Davies

I think, to be honest, it depends which department you are dealing with. Traditionally disability has been seen as a social care issue, so I suppose the strongest links have been with them and there is probably more knowledge within that department around disability issues, although it has been focused on social care and not equality issues and, of course, Disability Wales has very much wanted to move disability out of being seen as a social care or welfare issue. It is about rights; it is about equality and opportunities for employment, or education and to see disability as a broader issue. Obviously, we work very closely with the Equality Policy Unit, but I think with other departments we do not have such a strong relationship. I think housing probably it would be fair to say I think there is room for development there. Economic development would be another one, The areas which have not traditionally seen disability as part of their remit.

Lord Richard

Thank you very much.

Derek Walker

We are the newest of the four consultative bodies for the Assembly on equality and we have just been going for 2 years. Our relationship has been a very positive one. Before we received Assembly funding there was not a body or a voice for lesbian, gay and bisexual people in Wales and so the Assembly's funding has made that possible. We also receive funding from Stonewall UK, which is the national equality organisation for lesbian, gay and bisexual people. We are also a membership organisation and that is the key to our work. Our members include LGB groups and helplines and services across Wales, but also individuals, and they vote on our Committee, and our policy is very much one that is set in Wales, even though we are part of the organisation of Stonewall.

There are many LGB issues that perhaps have not been recognised previously in Wales because there was no one speaking on behalf of LGB people. What we have identified is our key issues, and there are many more for the next 3 years, that revolve around the areas of education, discrimination and harassment in employment, in the work place; community developments, so community infrastructures, services and support across Wales for lesbian and gay people, and public awareness, so raising awareness in the media and across the Welsh population about issues for LGB people.

The relationship has been, as I say, a very positive one. I will give you some examples: in the area of education the Assembly recently amended its guidance on sexual relationships in schools. Previously there had been no mention in the Welsh office guidance about tackling homophobic bullying and talking about same sexuall relationships in schools and which had been a huge issue for us, and part of the reason for that was Section 28, even though Section 28 is a redundant piece of legislation that had prevented or inhibited local authorities in Wales from talking and dealing with these issues. The Welsh Assembly Government has issued guidance which makes it very clear what Section 28 does and does not mean and has given good advice, we feel, on how schools should be dealing with these issues. Part of the issues I have mentioned in the paper here are the fact that this legislation is something that still lies with Westminster, so the guidance has changed in Wales, but implementing this new policy has been difficult because of the continued existence of Section 28.

Another example of work that we have done is on employment regulations. For the first time from December there will be new protections against discrimination and harassment for lesbian, gay and bisexual people in the workplace. Previously that had not existed.

Lord Richard

Who have you been lobbying in relation to those issues?

Derek Walker

These regulations lie with the DTI, and they are responsible for implementation.

Lord Richard

Not in Cardiff?

Derek Walker

Yes, so it is in Westminster, but the Assembly has close contact with the DTI on how these rules are to be implemented and in discussing what the rules will say in the UK, so we had discussions through the Equality of Opportunity Committee about what we would like to see in Wales, and how we would like to see them implemented.

Lord Richard

You would make representations to Cardiff to the appropriate committee in Cardiff and they would then negotiate with the DTI. Is that the way it works?

Derek Walker

We do both.

Lord Richard

Nationally, surely, Stonewall would negotiate with the DTI?

Derek Walker

Yes, and we do that through Stonewall nationally and also independently, but we also do it through the Assembly's Equality Policy Unit, the influence the Assembly and the Committee can have on these changes, so that is how that has worked.

So yes, there are many other issues, but the relationship has been a very positive one and previous to the Assembly the work that we do in the organisation that we are would not have existed.

Lord Richard

Thank you very much.

Mary Slater

Me this time for a bit! In fact the coalition existed before the Assembly came into being but it existed in a non-statutory form and it would claim that before it became a consultative organisation funded by the Assembly it made great headway because some of our previous members joined the Assembly. The late Val Feld did and Helen Mary Jones did, and the coalition was fairly instrumental in bringing pressure to bear on putting in the equality clause in the Government of Wales Act and also in perhaps helping to ensure there was an equality committee within the Assembly. So we have a long back history.

But in practice we have only been funded for about 18 months and we are probably unique amongst the consultative organisations you will be hearing from because at the moment our only funding comes from the Assembly, £50,000 a year, and the nearest equivalent to us is the Women's National Commission in the UK, which curiously enough has a remit that covers, as far as I am aware, Scotland, Wales, and England, and quite often we trip up against issues that the Women's National Commission is dealing with, but they have either forgotten about Wales or they have not told us that they are going to consult in Wales. For example, there is a consultation process ongoing in relation to David Blunkett's forthcoming paper on domestic violence, and we were not aware that the Women's National Commission was planning to hold a consultative event in Cardiff and we eventually found out by various other routes of our members, so those are issues that slightly concern us.

We have very good relationships with the Assembly. Obviously, we would not be here unless we got our funding. We feel it would be a great help to us to have more funding, because with three part time staff we feel that there is a huge gap between our aspirations, what we would like to do and what we can actually do.

We are also the gender representative on the Voluntary Sector Scheme that the Assembly has put in being and, although we receive a certain amount of funding for that, that takes up a huge amount of time, particularly the field workers' role has got somewhat diluted, so that she represents us on some of the Ministerial meetings. I do not know if any of my colleagues have anything else they would like to add?

Angharad Davies

Can I just add, you asked about the relationship that we have and it is very cordial and very positive, and we are funded to act as a consultative body. The Assembly consults the WWNC on gender issues and I think that is one thing that we would admit that we grapple with, and I think probably the Assembly itself would admit that it too grapples with the consultation process and we sometimes are left wondering how meaningful that process is, because you know yourselves, a policy document lands on the doorstep, or on the doormat rather, and you are given a very short timescale within which to respond to that, and of course with the very diverse membership, I think our membership is 20 organisations and members, so trying to meet in a meaningful way, consult those members about a particular piece of policy, is actually quite difficult, and I think we are on a learning curve, as of course is the Assembly. So whilst the relationship is cordial we sometimes wonder perhaps how meaningful it is and I am sure perhaps the other organisations feel the same on the consultation process.

Sir Michael Wheeler Booth

On the last two replies, how does the relationship, consultation that goes on here in Wales and, indeed, the funding by the Assembly compare with what happens in England.

Mary Slater

As far as the Women's National Commission is concerned they are one of these, wait a minute, advisory public bodies at arms length, and they are staffed by seconded civil servants predominantly, and the last document I was looking at which was when they were reviewed, which was 1989, so it is totally out of date, their funding was about £150,000, so presumably it has gone up.

Lord Richard

From the Government?

Mary Slater

From the Government, yes. They come under the DTI.

Lord Richard

They are wholly funded by the Government?

Mary Slater

They are wholly funded by the Government, yes, as far as I am aware.

Sir Michael Wheeler Booth

Is the closeness that you imply goes on between you and the Assembly, is that replicated in England?

Mary Slater

I think it is totally different in England, partly because of the size of Wales and the relationships. Clearly everybody went to school with somebody they know in the Assembly, or sat next to them at school, and I think in the UK it is totally different, but the Women's National Commission is much more involved at the United Nations level than we could possibly ever be, so in a sense there are conduits to the more international arena and they also have immediate access to Governmental areas that are not devolved to Wales.

Sir Michael Wheeler Booth