COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

of the

EVIDENCE OF:

The Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru

held at

Caradog House, Cardiff

On

FRIDAY 25 JULY 2003

 In Attendance

Lord Richard, Richard Commission

Eira Davies, Richard Commission

Tom Jones, Richard Commission

Peter Price, Richard Commission

Ted Rowlands, Richard Commission

Vivienne Sugar, Richard Commission

Paul Valerio, Richard Commission

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth KCB, Richard Commission

Keith Edwards, Chartered Institute of Housing

Louise Matts, Chartered Institute of Housing

Tamsin Stirling, Chartered Institute of Housing

Proceedings

Lord Richard

I wondered if you would be able to identify yourselves and then perhaps open up.

Keith Edwards

My name is Keith Edwards.

Louise Matts

I am Louise Matts. I am the Policy Officer for the Branch Committee.

Tamsin Stirling

I am Tamsin Stirling and Chair of the Wales Branch of the Chartered Institution of Housing.

Keith Edwards

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you. We will keep comments brief. We want to raise some issues in which we are particularly interested and then perhaps follow them through in relation to the Paper.

I will explain the set-up in Wales. We have an office in Wales and we also have , a lay committee comprised of housing professionals including Louise and Tamsin .

We work very closely together, and we are pleased to have the opportunity to come along today to raise a couple of comments.

We will not go into great detail but we are the professional organisation for people that are working in housing. We see ourselves in two distinct roles. One is to promote housing policy to make sure that politicians and others have effective ways of dealing with that. Secondly at a more micro level, we work with people on the ground, the organisations on the ground, in terms of training and support, to develop housing in the professional way and to achieve our policy aims .

CIH Cymru is part of the CIH nationally and is not autonomous but we do have post-devolution responsibility for housing matters that have been devolved to the Assembly, and have a Wales Board that deals with those issues. Just very briefly, before we move on I think it is worth pointing out that housing in Wales does have specific characteristics in relation to other parts of the UK. I will not list what is in the paper but I think it is imperative to make sure housing is dealt with in ways that specifically address the Welsh circumstances.

I think it is also fair to say that, post-devolution, we have made considerable progress on housing issues, although not as much as we would have liked. Nevertheless, it is fair to say the new way of working to include people in the development of policy has meant we have all had to ‘roll our sleeves up’ and work alongside government to develop housing strategy. Certainly, my view and the view of my organisation is it has been a very positive experience in itself. I think there are also a number of particularly important policy developments that would not have been possible had we not had this opportunity for devolution afforded to us. For example, the Homelessness Commission in Wales developed the first homelessness strategy anywhere in the UK.

We have the BME housing strategy that is, in many ways, as good as I have seen anywhere else in the UK. We have our own Welsh Housing Quality Standard that particularly applies to local authorities. We now build all new housing association properties to LifeTime Homes standards taking into account the needs of people as they move through their life as their circumstances and conditions change That is, again, something ahead of the field as far as the rest of the UK is concerned.

The final point before I move on is in relation to stock transfer. Getting investment into Local Authority housing, has been a very contentious issue in Wales and has not been dealt with as in the other parts of the UK. We have started looking at ways including the Community Housing Mutuall where tenants themselves become owners of the housing stock through a co-operative, providing a way that suit Welsh circumstances politically and other circumstances, to ensure that we get the necessary investment in our housing stock. All this has been underpinned by the fact that they have a devolved administration. The Welsh housing community has also played a role in developing all those initiatives and ideas.

Could I perhaps move on to the issues raised in your Email. I believe you have had a list of issues that would be particularly useful. I will just deal with a couple of those very briefly because I know you would like to tease out any points that you think are worth pursuing.

Firstly, in relation to the issue about legislative powers, we would look to draw attention to the Scottish experience. They have had that power for some time now to introduce housing legislation which they did in the first parliamentary term. Related to this we have experienced difficulty in dealing with a number of policies priorities identified early by the Assembly, for example licensing Houses in Multiple Occupation because of the need for primary legislation and the lack of space in the UK Parliament legislative programme.

Talking to the civil service, I know that they have found this quite frustrating to deal with relatively small ‘tidying up’ things because of the lack of Parliamentary time. This also applies to quite major matters like establishing a Housing Association Ombudsman service in Wales to address the disparity between the rights of local authorities and housing association tenants.

In contrast inScotland they were able to establish a Scottish Secure Tenancy through legislation that placed housing association tenants on exactly the same tenancy terms as local authority tenants.

In England and Wales, the Law Commission is carrying out a review of tenure law. I guess that Wales is very much caught up in that and we do have the opportunity to put forward its ideas. But the danger is being drowned out by the much more of a weighty effect that England can bring to bear in such discussions.

The final point that I want to mention, and Tamsin wants to make points about housing benefit and stock transfer, relates not to legislative changes but about the capacity of the civil service: this is a particular concern of ours. If you look at the number of civil servants delivering the national housing strategy for Wales as opposed to those charged with delivering housing policy in England within the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, there is a huge disparity but the civil service in Wales is expected to deliver across the full range of housing policy issues. The Assembly is able to draw on support from weslh housing organisations but it also relies on the centre and establishing good relationships.

We are picking up on a very mixed bag of experience of dealings between the civil service in Wales - from very good relationships, very responsive, to where the draw-bridge has been almost been drawn-up.

Tamsin Stirling

I was just going to pick up on a couple of points that you asked us to cover in relation to housing benefit and stock transfers, and the finance issues. I suppose the key issue here is where you draw the line between what are devolved issues and what are not.

Housing policy which is devolved is very much effected by fiscal policy which is not. For example rent policy is devolved to the Assemblybut Housing Benefit policy is dealt with by the Treasury. At the moment, there is a whole programme of rent reform in England to bring the rents of housing associations more closely together. The way that housing policy is being tailored is directly associated with converging rents in x years time, and that is not really applicable in the same way in Wales at all.. Rents between local authorities and housing associations are much closer together and we do not therefore have the same programme of rent reform. Yet, housing benefit is run in the same way as it is in England.

Lord Richard

Sorry, I do not follow that.

Tamsin Stirling

The housing benefit policies are being tailored to a programme where local authorities and housing associations rents are all being required to converge. In a few years time they are going to have some target rents that both local authorities and housing authorities are aiming for and housing benefit will not paid over that.

Lord Richard

What is wrong with that?

Tamsin Stirling

Simply that housing nuances in Wales are not reflected in this process. I just think housing policy is being delivered through fiscal means. The specific characteristics of Welsh housing – the issue of low income and owner occupiers, more people owning their home - it is would be appropriate to introduce a housing credit system which support low income and owner occupiers which would mean housing reform of the benefit system.

It is absolutely not on the cards in England, and they will not be on the cards in Wales. Therefore, there needs to be a solution for a Welsh housing context.

Lord Richard

Any negotiation taken place that the National Assembly would want to do?

Tamsin Stirling

It would be a reasonable response to the housing context in Wales in which there are many owner occupiers with low incomes

Lord Richard

Do you think this is something the Assembly would like to do but cannot do?

Tamsin Stirling

It is not possible. It is not really being considered.

Tom Jones

Accepting the principle of housing benefit as opposed to universal benefit?

Tamsin Stirling

The issue of the owner occupiers is that it is absolutely not applied to owner occupiers at the moment, and will not be considered to be so. It is just to support those that are on low incomes and rent. There is an argument that people should be supported who are on low incomes regardless of tenure so that benefits could be pay the mortgage as well as the rent.

Ted Rowlands

Where would the money come from?

Lord Richard

How much would we need?

Tamsin Stirling

Studies have been done to actually work out how much it would cost and the measure could be funded through the release of capital receipts from the right to buy sales of council houses which have been released in England. However, in Wales, the money has been released in other ways.

There was an opportunity to fund something like that, and that opportunity is now passed. I guess there could be other opportunities that could be provided.

Vivienne Sugar

If Tamsin has finished, I wanted to go back to what was said by Keith. It is about the capacity of the civil service in Wales to cope with the breadth of the housing agenda, when you have dozens and dozens of people in ODPM driving that agenda. It is just to put to you the compensation, I suppose that is the inclusive way that the Assembly works, which is to involve organisations like yourself.

The very earliest stages of thinking were very different to the way it operates in England where I understand they are worked up and polished before they are shown to our side organisations, and that might mean that you are providing a policy development capacity for the Assembly for free.

I just pose the question if you would rather have it that way round, rather than the way it operates in England.

Keith Edwards

Yes, the truthful answer is there is no reason why we could not have both. We do not have have the resources to allow us to completely replicate the housing policy agenda in England so it is a combination of what we do now and securing additional resources. The early part of the first Assembly term was characterised by wh\at has been called ‘big tent’ consultations with everybody was around the table. It could be cumbersome and unfocussed, but everybody had their say.

We have moved on. There is recognition of the need to be smarter and to pull in the people with expertise within organisations rather than badge wearers. It is not either a more inclusive way of workin or more resources. We need touse resources effectively and develop partnership working.

At the same time, it is necessary to recognise the absolute limits on the resources available to the Assembly to deliver plus the protocols that exist between them and the Government's Department. Between the ODPM and the Assembly there are some excellent relationships,with a very supportive and responsive attitude to requests for information.. With other sections there is not such a good experience.

Tamsin Stirling

The capacity is not there also to influence primarily legislation. There is an example at the moment. .

Lord Richard

What is that?

Tamsin Stirling

The whole issue about paying Social Housing Grant to not just registered social landlords but to private sector developers that have been driven by the housing crisis in the south east of England and in particular the plan to deliver 200,000 homes in x number years. However, we have not got the context here in Wales.

Vivienne Sugar

So should there be a context, a clause, that says, "Does not apply in Wales"?

Keith Edwards

It may become relevant in the future but its not relevant in the current policy context. There is a lso a basic flaw in the consultation paper where it refers to the Housing Corporation as being responsible for the allocation of social housing grant which is in England but its not in Wales.

Tamsin Stirling

Just to raise the issue of stock transfer which is a contentious issue, I think one of the issues here is that there is a commitment from the Treasury to cover indebtedness after a transfer has taken place with the local authorities. For instance, a local authority whose housing stock is worth very little and still owes quite lot of money on it, still has the debt to pay . The Trasury has given a commitment to cover that cost in both Wales and Scotland. This has been in place for some time in Wales and Scotland but only recently in England. So, support for housing in Wales and Scotland went further for that policy in England. The general feeling is that that decision was taken because the stock transfer in Glasgow involved a lot of money to make it stack up financially. If you cannot do something for Scotland, you cannot do it for Wales. So that was driven by something happening in Scotland.

Lord Richard

How long was the decision to cover that in Wales?

Keith Edwards

The last two years.

Lord Richard

Yes.

Tamsin Stirling

There is an argument that would the Assembly choose housing policy to pay for itself or not? It is an argument that has been made by an academic or two, but it is a valid argument. It could be seen as a degree of intervention in a policy which could take it further.

Lord Richard

Please tell us more of the working relationships. Good? Accessible? Easy?

Tamsin Stirling

Yes, easy.

There is a whole range of people across the housing division and a few within the Communities First Team.

Lord Richard

The lawyers?

Tamsin Stirling

I have not personally dealt with the lawyers. I think Keith certainly made the point about initially lots and lots of consultation. I guess the capacity issues goes for organisations outside the Assembly.

Lord Richard

Do you get your point of view across to the Assembly? Do they take proper notice?

Tamsin Stirling

I am almost bound to say on some things, yes, and some things, no The major disappointment for me in the housing movement is the financial decisions made. However, that is the joy of devolution; you influence some decisions but you do not stop making the argument for investment.

Keith Edwards

In terms of work-a-day relationships, there is definitely a huge improvement for us compared with working with the pre-devolution housing division, for example. They are now very good, open and accessible and you respect that.

Assembly politicians that are there on the ground, they are accessible in that respect.

Tamsin Stirling

Where it pans out to is the timescales. That is not a criticism of any individual as you can only do what you can do. Sometimes things drift and there is a little domino effect that, when things drift, there is a sequence of events that are carried out, and things go from one financial year to the next.

We are all impatient to see housing get a better deal for people that live in poorer quality housing.

Vivienne Sugar

Housing was previously devolved in the sense that the Secretary of State had a large number of (inaudible). Those people have been absolved, and you brought that under direct control. Any less or more people than were there? Why is there a delay in the problem, Tamsin?

Keith Edwards

The old Welsh Office housing division was sometimes ahead of the games as well, although It is also happening in the other parts of the UK now, pulling the two strands of social housing together; local authorities and housing associations under the control of aunified department.

We have been involved, and Tamsin has been involved personally in the review of regulation for registered social landlords in Wales. I think we have seen perhaps less resources going into regulation in the last few years. I would be very surprised if the complement of civil servants is significantly different .

Tamsin Stirling

Yes. I think there are additional tasks including responding to and servicing the members and committees et cetera. I have not sat anybody down and said, "What proportion of your time does this take?" However, there are a collection of tasks which have to be carried out now that were not carried out prior to devolution.

Ted Rowlands

Taken off the peg from Whitehall.

I am just going to ask as one thing astonished me: an Act on homelessness, the England and Wales Act, only in the 18 months or 2 years is virtually identical. There are no special Welsh clauses as such because everyone was satisfied homelessness was integrated by that Act. Did it or did it not have any devolution?

Tamsin Stirling

The Assembly actually passed it in March 2001. Keith mentioned it a couple of times, Wales being ahead of the game, through secondary legislation to change the details of how things are dealt with local authorities and to broaden the safety net of people that are affected by other legislation

Ted Rowlands

In effect it did.

Tamsin Stirling

Yes, it was devolved under the previous legislation.

Ted Rowlands

Therefore, we could use that to achieve what the Assembly defined was needed, and the Act was therefore not that relevant.

Tamsin Stirling

Yes that extended the safety net, and then the Homelessness Act had a lot more of a broad-brush approach on what was a strategic and preventative approach. My reading accorded with what the Assembly's Homelessness Commission had concluded. I don't think there is a conflict there. The timescale was such that they used secondary powers in advance of primary legisation.

Keith Edwards

The issue of the anti-social behaviour and Housing Benefit proposals as well.

Tamsin Stirling

Yes, the issue of housing policy being delivered by fiscal measures. There is something in the White Paper at the moment about anti-social behaviour and withdrawing housing benefit from anti-social tenants. That is causing lots of anxieties, as you can imagine, all round.

I was going to use the Scottish example, how it would undermine the homelessness strategy to prevent homelessness and deal with more preventive and ameliorative ways rather than saying it will result in something like losing your home.

In Scotland, there is a 10-year programme looking at homelessness, to totally broaden the safety net of the legislation where there is not anything. The whole issue of the potentially homeless would then be removed.

In the Scottish case, if the housing benefit measures go through someone who had their housing benefit removed for being anti-social, they could apply and would not be homeless and then the local authority could pick up the tab. In effect you could review and remove housing benefit for someone that is anti- social, but does it undermine the national framework which is about social inclusion and homelessness et cetera so it has the capacity to run in a totally different direction?

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth

Can I ask just one quick question? There are a lot of comparisons with the English and Scottish but there has been no mention of Northern Ireland. Are you aware of what is happening there? Are there any lessons you have learned from that?

Keith Edwards

We have an office in Edinburgh and Belfast so we link with them. From talking to colleagues in Northern Ireland, the main issue, surprise surprise, is the political impasse and the difficulties arising out of that.

The devolution settlement was obviously different. The CIH in Northern Ireland has difficulties in engaging the appropriate ministers in Northern Ireland, and they have been without a minister for a considerable period of time. We are in close contact but there are no cross issues for us other than one or two issues, for example Lifetime Homes where we have worked very closely with colleagues in Northern Ireland.

Lord Richard

Yes. Can I thank you for very much for coming. You have opened up an interesting subject. Yes, thank you.