COMMISSION ON THE POWERS AND ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 of the

 EVIDENCE OF:

 Donald Anderson MP

 held at 

Boothroyd Room, Portcullis House, Westminster

on

 THURSDAY 12 JUNE 2003

 In Attendance

Lord Richard, Chair, Richard Commission

Ted Rowlands, Richard Commission

Tom Jones, Richard Commission

Peter Price, Richard Commission

Dr Laura McAllister, Richard Commission

Sir Michael Wheeler-Booth, Richard Commission

Paul Valerio, Richard Commission

Vivienne Sugar, Richard Commission

Eira Davies, Richard Commission

Huw Thomas, Richard Commission

Donald Anderson MP

Proceedings

 Lord Richard

Could you identify yourself for the purpose of the record to start off with?

Donald Anderson

Even at this time of the morning I can just about identify who I am. Donald Anderson. Is this very formal? Can I just give sort of unprepared rumblings?

Lord Richard

Yes, please.

Donald Anderson

First of all, I suppose the question is is there a mood in Wales for a grand leap forward or for a tidying operation in terms of the experience which we have had in respect of the Assembly? My good friend Ted will know that I was part of the so-called gang of six in the 1970s, basically because at some stage you have to come down on one side of the fence in political matters and I could see a sort of 60/40 against in the 1970s and I can just about see 60/40 in favour I guess in the 1980s and 1990s, but eventually politicians have to decide, so I thought in general in terms of regional devolution, of decentralisation, of identity, it made sense to have a focus for Welsh opinion and I therefore was intellectually converted to the case for devolution whilst recognising the dangers that for some it was a rather romantic exercise to have devolution; a unitary system gave no easy stopping point along the road, and so those who were talking about slippery slopes, and so on, had much to be said in their favour. Inevitably no institution is static; all institutions are dynamic. Everyone who is part of an institution, whether it is my friend Peter Price in the European Parliament, or whatever, everyone wants new powers, and beyond that the people may be highly sceptical about these new powers. So the spirit in which I would approach the next stage of looking at the constitutional structures in Wales would be to say, "Well, what have we learnt --

Lord Richard

Can I interrupt before we get on to that and ask you a question. You say you were converted to the case for devolution. Was that on the basis Welsh devolution goes along with the Scottish devolution, or a different system of devolution? In other words, that Scotland would have different powers from Wales, in that detail?

Donald Anderson

We in the UK do not believe in grand designs. We believe in responding to particular circumstances, and I saw no -- whatever academics may have said -- particular problem in a Spanish type autonomy situation where Catalonia and Valencia and the Basque countries wanted to go further on the road and their identity suggested that that would be appropriate there, whereas Valencia said there was no demand, or insufficient demand, but let us go partially along the road and Spain has managed to live with this "not one suit fits all", but let us look at local circumstances. What is absolutely clear from history is that Scotland had a system of, not only a legal system, but even a financial basis which we in Wales did not have and that the demand was clearly greater in Scotland, and any sensible Government would have responded accordingly to the demand, and equally sensibly we would look at the way the dynamics have changed and the way that demand in Wales would move. Quite properly with the existence of the new focus for Welsh opinion, although I say there is always a great danger in Wales of sinking into our valleys and not looking over the valley tops and of a sort of unhealthy parochialism, I think there is a healthy individualism identity which I am more than happy to see further progressed by our national institution. So that is the starting point.

Ted Rowlands

You asked the question is there a need for a grand leap?

Donald Anderson

I would move on and I think there is not. Although there will be some in the BBC and the inspectors of schools and the normal chattering classes in Wales who look to a grand step forward, it may come; the mood may change, and we will be ready to respond accordingly, but there is a sort of -- it is a nastiness against politics generally which we see from the institutions, but I think the Welsh Assembly has had an unfortunate and undeserved press, but my own instinct is to look at areas where in the light of experience we can improve the Welsh input and that means, I heard Gareth say this morning innovations like building on prelegislative discussions, putting it, enshrine it if you will in some new concordat rules of engagement, and that will be as a matter of course that there be joint committees. It will be a matter of course that we accept that legislation can only be improved if it is not handed down like tablets of stone from the top of the mountain but is discussed fully with the representatives at the Assembly level and Parliament level and we look at ways and means of doing that and that is my instinct of learning from experience, having here in Westminster having total respect for our Assembly colleagues and working with them in partnership. So that is the sort of first thought.

I suspect some colleagues may make too much of this, but in the Assembly elections, rather like Alice in Wonderland, there are prizes for everyone and that, although you have lost you have won, and I do not know how significant it is, but there was a certain feeling that the legislative choice was devalued by people who at one moment said, "I am weeping copious tears because I have lost, I have lost" and knowing in fact that they are going to win because under the system they could get by on the list, and perhaps people should be asked to make a choice of list or constituency. The contrary argument is that we could well be losing some talent in Wales as a result of an alternative system. That is part of our Welsh delusion. When I was a boy I read the Welsh folk story somewhere in the hills of Carmarthenshire a little shepherd boy stumbled into a cave where there was a sleeping army of Welshmen, and at the time when the Assembly was set up there was this grand delusion for us in Wales that somewhere there were lots of people who would not be attracted to the normal structures but were likely to march forward on the trumpet sound and be ready to give their talents to the people of Wales. There may be people lurking somewhere in the corners of the BBC, or wherever, who will be ready to give their talents, and I hope that we can have them as part of our national union like the little shepherd boy in the army in the caves of Carmarthenshire. We have to realise that the reality is that people will come probably from existing party structures in Local Government, some alas who did not quite make it to Westminster. I hope we will come to a time when we might in the European Parliament when people of ambitions and will increasingly look to the Assembly as a serious option. It depends on the interests of individuals, and there is a very serious danger that while Westminster still has the cash that people who have a serious interest in health, in education, realise that their talents will not be fulfilled in Wales. I do not know if I am allowed to quote the goodbye letter of one distinguished member of your panel, but I remember being very seriously impressed with what one former Parliamentary colleague said, that part of his job satisfaction had gone when the Assembly was set up because he could not answer people's concerns in his constituency on health and education. So if this is the motivation, the talent, the experience, the background of individuals they should go to the Assembly, rather than come to Westminster. So that mutual respect, built on experience, and I suppose before you tear me apart, because I am afraid I am totally unprepared -- this is just murmurings, I hope from someone who does keep his feet reasonably well on the ground in Swansea -- and Swansea, as the former Chief Executive knows, is a border city between Welsh Wales and English Wales and therefore was the only major city to support the Assembly in the referendum. So Swansea is fairly representative and In the referendum the electoral geography was very clear: the east went against devolution; the west went for, and Swansea was happy straddling the two, and it was the only major conglomeration which went for the Assembly.

I see no appetite among the people I try to represent in favour of the great leap forward, and that I think puts a certain constraint on those of us who claim to try to represent popular opinion, and we all say one of the mantras politicians have to connect with public and that means listening to people and perhaps in a spirit of humility recognised that in 1997 when we had the referendum all the parties in Wales represented at Westminster were strongly in favour of the proposal. The Welsh media was almost one hundred per cent in favour of the proposal. The National Westminster Government, genuinely used its resources. We were criticised for not being sufficiently enthusiastic, but certainly people like myself tried to get our parties motivated, and yet in spite of that enormous convergence of the right and the good we had a 50 per cent turnout and 25 per cent for and 25 per cent against. What conclusions does one draw from that? Did we fail in terms of our own missionary work? No. In 1979 there were 4 to 1 against and that perhaps reflected the unpopularity of the then Labour Government in 1979, so in referenda we cannot separate the question from the political context, (as Mitterand said that the French people always give an answer to the wrong question in referenda) thus we cannot divorce them from the context.

Can I stop my burbling and just come to this point: so the conclusion I draw from the actual referendum result in 1997 was that the Welsh people were very divided, the Welsh people remain divided, that if there were any attempt to have a great leap forward it would have to be probably against the prevailing wind of the people and would certainly demand another referendum.

Dr Laura McAllister

In terms of measuring public opinion, or any kind of opinion measurement has its own problems, particularly anecdotal evidence, and our own engagement with the Assembly we know is more problematic than most, I am sure you are familiar with a lot of the more robust opinion polling that has gone on over the past 4 years and in fact, speaking as an academic, we are in a much more advantageous position to measure public opinion than we were in the 1970s and I just wonder what is your take on the fact that if you combine the options of a Scottish model plus an even greater measure of independence those two options come out at over 50 per cent on a consistent basis? That seems to account for a lot of arguments you are suggesting you are picking up from your constituency in Swansea.

Donald Anderson

I can only explain, as someone who likes to think I am in touch. The politicians will take perhaps the wrong message from going to the post offices in the constituency and talking to relatives and talking to people, and I was educated in the University of Wales I have to say, I was an academic in the University of Wales for a period. Very many of my closest friends remain in the University of Wales and I know that span of opinion, but I also am, hopefully, sufficiently close to the ground to know the other spans of opinion, and I cannot answer -- I suspect that opinion polls vary substantially, but I would be very sceptical about the attention of most people to the minutiae of these sort of areas. There may be a generalised view that perhaps we should move forward, but I would be ready to come down to the details. My own hunch -- totally irrational but an honest attempt to put my ears to the ground -- would be that there is no appetite for other than a tidying operation.

Lord Richard

You say there is no appetite, but is there a need?

Donald Anderson

I could have a great academic seminar on the need, and I personally have no great argument against moving faster and further along the road, but I am also a Democrat.

Lord Richard

You see, we have had a lot of evidence, a mass of evidence about sort of jagged edges and split responsibilities, where Wales is responsible, Cardiff is responsible for a bit of the subject and Westminster is responsible for something else and they do not quite fit together, but do you take the view that that should be resolved, those problems?

Donald Anderson

Yes, I would think it could be resolved without giving hostages to fortune in terms of something that might be construed as separatist. You would need a good partnership, you would need understanding and respect, and if it can be shown that there are jagged edges which can be removed; if in the light of experience we say that by working with the Assembly on a basis of mutual respect we can move forward in that way, great, but I do not see any call or need now for serious constitutional change, and I do apologise, actually, I did not mean to come this morning. I mean, I have prepared absolutely nothing and I have just come from a whole series of meetings on foreign affairs. This is no more than the prejudices of one local Welsh Democrat.

Vivienne Sugar

Can we perhaps explore your prejudices a bit more, or those of your constituents and why in Brynmill there is not an appetite for change?

Donald Anderson

That was where I was born and brought up.

Vivienne Sugar

Because it is contrary to the evidence that we have had from opinion polls, who actually want greater clarity of powers for the Assembly so that the Assembly is more able to deliver whatever it is that Welsh people want to see changed. What do you think makes up the feelings of your constituents? Is it to do with the perceptions of the Assembly via the press? Is it to do with the demarcation between an MP's role, a constituency Assembly Member's role and a regional list Assembly Member's role? Can you give us some examples of what the people are actually saying to you they are not happy about?

Donald Anderson

Yes. I think a lot of it is fed by the press, which I think gives the Assembly a very undeserved reputation and all they are concerned about the cost of the headquarters: "There they go again taking our money, and using it for their purposes", and comments like "56 working days until Christmas" and that sort of nonsense, I can see it straight away feeds basic prejudice. I only wish that the press were a little more understanding of the serious work which the Assembly does and obviously changes in constitutional structures are not the everyday conversation of the ladies in the post office or the people in the pubs and the clubs, so I suppose it is a matter of coaxing along or saying that the following problems have arisen and seeking to resolve them.

As to the point of the list system, I supported the list system, because I thought it was a useful constitutional device for promoting inclusiveness in Wales and not shutting out different parties from specific areas and I know that it would have led to (inaudible) in Wales, and it has not been as successful as I would have hoped. One I guess is those who are losing have become winning, but perhaps that is inevitable. Part of it is the uncertainty about whom represents whom, and even, as you will probably know, headmasters in schools are feeling the need to invite not just the constituency AM but also the list AM, or AMs, otherwise they might be accused of partisanship, and so on. Again, it is part of the political dialogue of temptations of politicians to make promises, and particularly when we are not able to deal with them, but there has been more than a share of that from list AMs.

I am not sure that one could change the situation now, because unless there were a very strong consensus one might be accused of manipulation for partisan purposes. I think we are stuck.

All I can say is that the operation of the list system in Wales has made me less inclined to support PR at Westminster level.

Paul Valerio

That is part of a question I want to pursue, because it may well come -- it is only my opinion -- that we will decide that the Assembly needs to be enlarged, so if the existing system is proving fractious in relationship with party representatives then should we seriously consider a totally different system, a system of having a national list? I am also delighted to say how pleased I am to hear you say the people of Brynmill, their views are virtually the same as the people I quote, which is the people of Swansea market and I have mentioned this several times and I am delighted to hear you have the same --

Donald Anderson

I place it in my own constituency, but I also genuinely -- Paul and I went to school together, so that is the first connection -- I also have several school friends who run stalls in Swansea market and I make it a point of honour every Saturday whenever I can to walk through Swansea market and talk to genuinely a large number of the people who are friends from my boyhood and who are not unrepresentative of Swansea as a whole. So the prejudices which I do express are those of a number of people -- I am frankly more devolutionist and more likely to go along that road than most of the people to whom I speak. I missed your point, because essentially if there were greater numbers do I see the case for changing the system? Clearly there would then be an intellectually coherent case for looking at the system which could be done on a consensus basis without the charge of manipulation which I think would arise in the current situation, and one would have to work out a list of criteria of desirable things, including obviously inclusiveness within Wales, and we like to think we are part of one great happy family, and anything which could improve the working together in Wales should be one of the key criteria in looking at different electoral systems.

Peter Price

I respect your finger on the pulse because, among other things, you have a very long political experience, and I would like to just press this a little further, your post office or Swansea market, wherever you are talking to people, the kind of feedback that you are getting, is this negative about the Assembly, or is it disinterest that they are not talking about the Assembly? And more significantly, how does that compare with what they are saying about Westminster and Whitehall? Because in fact is it not quite normal that people complain about things, they do not talk about the things that they regard as positive and, therefore, if what you hear is negative feedback, is this not just the typical kind of remark that people make about any Government structure?

Donald Anderson

Peter, you have a good point there, and I find that the normal talk of MPs is they are all a bunch who are in it for what they can get, and yet there is often quite a warm response to individual MPs. It is exactly the same in respect of the Assembly; they are there for what they can get, yet AM X, Y and Z are really good people, we know them, "they help me. They are really taking to Cardiff the views that I want. They have done a lot of very useful work in hospitals, in schools", and therefore it may be a period of time where if we can just get away from this constant press besmirching of public representatives in general we could probably make more progress in the Assembly. I personally have had two AMs in my constituency, both of whom come with a different expertise and have used it extremely well for the benefit of the constituency. I have worked very closely with them. When I get any letter, for example, on health it goes straight down to my AM, and I tell my constituents, "This is a matter for the AM and not for myself", and I virtually, because of mutual respect, I have no sort of demarcation disputes with my AM, because I respect her enormously. That goes for both AMs I have had. I concede there may be problems in the case of other parliamentarians.

Chairman, I am rumbling and rumbling and burbling.

Peter Price

If I may just briefly take you up on one other point which you mentioned much earlier, and that was about Scotland. You said two differences about Scotland, comparing Scotland with Wales. One was the separate legal system, that it understood; the second was you even had a financial basis. That I did not understand. Could you explain.

Donald Anderson

Peter, let me try and explain. There are other lawyers here. A body called the Bank of Wales, compare the Bank of Wales with the Bank of Scotland, the Royal Bank of Scotland and the venture capital groups in Edinburgh, and the series of self standing groups in the financial sector and a network which is there, when you look at the way that devolution has proceeded at a pace in Scotland since the 1880s with a substructure of a constitutional basis which people are used to, it is a very different basis historically with the underpinning of the financial structures compared with that we have in Wales.

Ted Rowlands

Could I just probe you a little bit further on the tidying up. You say there is no appetite for change, but there is a tidying up process. Do you now think the burden of proof lies with those who resist, who want to stop further devolution, or with those who actually want further devolution? In other words, since the establishment of the Assembly has the burden of proof shifted? Traditionally, it has been for those who want to devolve to prove the case. Is it still the same or is the burden of proof on those who now wish to resist further devolution?

Donald Anderson

I could make that as an intellectual legal point as to on who now lies that burden of proof? I have posed my responses more as a Democrat. My starting point is the Assembly is there.

Ted Rowlands

You say you have the democratic, which I understand, and I appreciate, because that is where you come from, but when you think about it, do you think now should Whitehall have to justify holding on to certain powers or the Assembly justify having the powers?

Donald Anderson

I am not trying to evade, and I would need probably time properly to consider that. The starting point is that the Assembly is there, that it is part of our landscape now established and for ever in Wales, that the minimalist position which was set at a time of the Government of Wales Bill will be changed, and it will only be changed in one direction, because it was a minimalist structure, but the speed of that change, the nature of that change, must be done sensitively and to ensure that there is a reasonable consensus, so I am not wedded in any way to the existing structure. There will be changes, but I would have to genuinely think more carefully about on whom lies the burden of proof.

Ted Rowlands

Could I in that case, there has been big pitch to the Commission in the recent months from a lot of the lawyers, from a lot of Justices, and from Alex Carlile this morning, that the Home Office, youth justice, criminal justice, the legal system, Lord Chancellor's powers are right for devolution. How far would you going you have the lawyer's experience? How far would you go along with that?

Donald Anderson

For the generality of criminal law, for example, I cannot see how that can be adjusted to the border between Wales and England in terms of administration, and for looking at it within police areas I instinctively would be in favour of having the greatest possible degree of devolution, having experiments, and basically having policing to be as local as community minded as possible, and if necessary the constitutional structures to do that.

Ted Rowlands

You would see as reasonable, or not unreasonable, for the devolution responsibilities for the police to be put forward to the Assembly?

Donald Anderson

I see no particular problem. There would clearly have to be a basic minimum common core. It must quite clearly be that we would want to recruit from England and we have many expatriate Police officers there. I would not want to see sort of walls erected but I would like to see a devolved local response and I would want to see Local Authority -- from I think our own we have pioneered a number of interesting community action in that area, and that is precisely the area which does affect ordinary folk, because you know far better than I do in many ways that it is security, law and order which is the basis of the quality of life of our citizens.

Ted Rowlands

How far, on the youth justice side, how far do you think that can be devolved?

Donald Anderson

Well, in terms of core structures, I would not be against in principle various experiments in Wales or wherever, but I am not sure that there are such peculiar problems in Wales that the structures need be different, but there are worthwhile experiments, the Children's Commissioner, for example, which might be transposed to the criminal justice field where we could have pilots, experiments, which need not be a one size fits all, but I see no serious reason for looking at the generality of criminal law or youth justice law, and that is totally top of the head, because I just have not given it serious consideration.

Lord Richard

Can I thank you very much for coming. I think it has been refreshing and extremely helpful. Thank you very much.